Hi all, My primary taijiquan teacher virtually never talks about Qi. I practise taijiquan..a lot of drills, a lot of chansigong, no Qigong. In one sentence, I'd define "Qi" as moving with minimal muscular effort, while feeling extremely relaxed. That said, I practise for martial purposes, not to feel "Qi". But whatever it is that I feel, feels nice anyway, and I regard it as a nice side-benefit, a bonus, not the goal. There seem to be plenty of people here who have practised Qigong for some time, so there must be some answers out there. What is Qi for you? Where do you think Qi comes from? We all (basically) share the same nervous system and senses - so shouldn't Qi feel the same for vitually everyone? Am I considered a bona-fide student of taiji if I don't practise Qigong? If I'm practising form properly, shouldn't the Qi manifest by itself anyway? If I start practising Qigong exercises, how will it benefit my form / fighting techniques? Thanks, LQ ps. I'm not advertising taiji, it just happens to be the IMA I practise.
Hi, TB, If I had recieved a pm, I would have, in this instance only made anything of relevence available to any interested party. Cos.. If my memory serves me well - and it usually does - jkz has put info recieved in a pm to her, up on the open forum once before. :bang:
jkz, So, you 'used to be a practicing witch'. (whatever that means, as it is a catch-all phrase) I can only presume it was a cult type thing, seeing as you have moved on to christianity. Another cult type thing imo That doesnt mean you have any idea about the vast subject of paganism...just your little bit. It doesn't explain (and I do want to understand your pov as it has cropped up before for me) WHAT is the problem you have with Qigong? It is not a mind warping evil occult??? practice. I do accept the fact that a small minority of people who practice it may be of a 'cult' personality...but the same could be said of any significantly large group of people who do anything even basket weaving. :bang: As for your comment..... [[I was being flippant.]] Astounding. :woo: Coming from you, who, from your posts, appear to have rigid, fixed views that you defend vigourously without humour or good grace bombarding disbeleivers of your pov with endless quotes, is incomprehensible to me. I see a lot of viewpoints on these forums that are opposite to my own, but am confident enough in my own opinions not to mock posters who disagree with me. So, I ask one question, again. Please explain why Qigong is bad, OK? Mad Frog (literally...I don't expect people to agree with my pov's but I do expect the right to speak without people being disrespectful..ie flippant in response to an honest, civil question) Not a debate, imo...
Sorry to have offended you Mad Frog - I'm sure you'll find that I've had my share of flak from people too I've got plenty of "humour and good grace" whenever people show me that courtesy. But there is bit too much rolling of eyes, revelling in mwuhaahaas and demonic eyes and things for my liking around here (mostly from my old buddy TJB.) Anyway - Libraquan's questions are a good starting point as to why qigong might be bad. If you answer his questions, we might get somewhere. My view is this - As I've said before - if qigong is just breathing exercise and involves harmonising breath with movement then that's fine, in my opinion. If qigong is just dan lian (single technique repetition - working on the fine details of the movements) that's fine by me too. The kind of qigong I think is bad is stuff that involves any kind of self delusion about imaginary energies and anything that claims to bring the user mysterious powers. If it offers indirect advantages - i.e. keeping still gives you lightning fast reflexes, then that is just bunkum. Too many Taiji practitioners end up overweight (and with bad hearts) because they are afraid to get out of breath - this is not generally a problem in the Chen style though, which has lots of vigorous training. Also any qigong that focuses on physical sensations is advised against in the Taiji classics, so that's out too.
jkz... You talking 'bout FALUN GONG When you talk of Qigong and cults? If so, why didn't you say up front. :bang: If not, apart from possibly causing psychosis (sp?) probs in some people who practice Qigong in unrecommended ways, then I can't see why you are so vehament that it can be bad. ps I am discounting all the charlatons out there who can glue their students to the floor with their Qi........*wonders where richard dunn is now, and how long before this post emerges on his own forum, where I shall be slated for my view* Mad Frog. :Angel:
steam (energy) that powers all movement including mental movement. Breath is the coal. It is inherent in Nature - natures steam. Yes, try some for long enough. And you can answer your question for yourself, and to your own satisfaction. Yes I would say so. You are doing a form of qigong with your form anyway (though it may not always seem or feel like that..). Supplements help in my opinion as would standing. Either incorporating qigong work or not. Yes and no.. in my opinion. In formwork your mind has A LOT to work on. That's why I found a couple of supplementary qigongs in my class was a good thing. This is pretty subjective, as there are a very wide array of qigong exercises. It's a bit like asking why would doing push ups help you. Well they would help a specific area that is a part of the sum of the whole. The parts that qigong work for me i find useful. Focus, concentration, awareness of breath and controlling it better. Deeper breathing more fluid breathing. better appreciation of a mind body connection that I use to both act and react to stimulus. Sensitivity. a deeper appreciation of anothers movement generation that parallels the better understanding reached of my own movement generation. precept: know yourself to know others. This is not stand alone however, as these things i describe including a self perceived (as well as noticed by others I've trained with) increase in power and speed that I have gotten through IMA has of course come in conjuction with all the training I've done and do. But no one can tell me qigong has not contributed in a positive and useful way to my overall MA practice. Whatever their arguments may be. No cults, no psychosis..no worship of idols (contrary to how I post lately, my mental state has improved for the better- trust me on that..) Aswell as I also now understand all the deep secrets of the Universe. I'm convinced Lao Tzu in fact came to me through a dimensional portal and whispered some amazing stuff directly into my ear.. he was wearing a cunning disguise - (he looked a bit like my Grandpa) and their was a big flash as it happened..
That's part of what I'm talking about, but not just that. Incidentally, please stop banging your head against that wall - it's making you awfully red in the face and no doubt contributing to those recurring pains you keep getting in your head.
Please don't presume to tell me what icons I can use. What is your problem with people who use the freely available icons in their posts....thats what they are there for. Or is it another case of you don't, so we are wrong?? The only pain I get in my head is from trying to fathom why some people are intolerant of an opposite view to their own. :cry: I thought forums were to discuss and explain our differences, not to try and beat people over the head with, and try to coerce people over to our own ideas. :woo: Silly me. It's the Cymraes in me, I'm afraid. Waits to be told off. Mad Frog
I'll presume all I like , since you've assumed I know nothing about paganism and that I'm a Christian, when I've never said I am. I'm not saying I'm not, incidentally, :Angel: but not in the way many people would mean. My reference to your icons was another ... joke ... sorry ....
Seeing as the boys over in aikido are talking about ki, and are now mentioning fighting spirit.. I wanted to add to my last post a bit about the full paradigm of this kind of training. Yi, hsin and dan tien. The reason it is said not to be bothered about qi feeling is that the real 'prize' martial wise as i understand it is to raise the hsin for fighting. This is said to be brought about by bringing the yi to the dan tien. This allows the hsin to rise up.. It is a trained in conjunction of all 3 of these things and one of the effects i have felt is as described in the classics.. believe it or not i have a much better appreciation of the process and access of my hsin (heart/spirit). if it's for fighting then so be it.. Now you could say I'v felt this because i wanted it to happen etc.. But i beg to differ. i honestly think these component parts of our natural make up can be worked with to our overall benefit. But not in an obsessive way, there is no need and there is always detriment to anything done obsesively or compulsively if we aren't a bit careful. It all happens anyway, regardless, but i think this kind of work just brings an awareness hitherto unnoticed. Nothing amazing, nothing magical. Just a better understanding of internal natural processes.. acheived with the use of a paradigm. That's why it is and i think rightly known as internal work. Also anything done with malevolent intention is not going to be good for you, whether any kind of internal work, studies, training, politics, business/work practice, religion etc.. good or bad intentions will turn 'the things sour' the things themselves don't cause the malevolence or benevolance in the first place...
Hi Cloudhandz, I could think of it thus - the "steam" is cellular energy, and the "coal" is the cell's fuel (sugar + O2), but that only takes care of the physical side of things, the human body - not the claim that Qi is limitless and "out there", all around us. I find that too vague. But I have access to this forum. I wouldn't run out and buy a new dvd player without researching a little. If I walked into to a shop and a salesman said, "Buy it, try it, and you can find out if it works or not", I'd be rightly judged to be a fool. Good. I was rather hoping that I hadn't been deluding myself There is a lot to keep in mind when one first begins, but over time certain aspects "take care of themselves". If I devote time to learning and practising other (Qigong) exercises, I can't devote as much time to combat techniques. Since I know that continued training will eventually hard-wire the techniques, I can't see why I would take time away from practising those techniques, especially when there is so much controversy about the value of qigong. This is why I'm here, asking questions. And that's a problem for me, and probably many others. With so much to choose from, and people here openly admitting that there are charlatans out there, how can one be sure to choose something meaningful? Got the pushup analogy, but ime drilling on a difficult or otherwise problematic posture (or part of a posture) will always achieve the same end - "help that specific area". but doesn't regular form practise, push-hands and sparring develop the above anyway? Ok. Well, ok, but I wish I had a clearer idea of how qigong helped. I trust you on that. Thanks for taking the time to reply, it is appreciated. LQ
Bottom line, when you are combining the mind and breath, you are talking about a meditative practice. And qigong is that. if you can't see the benefit, and trust me you won't see it through words, here or a book off the shelf. I'm not selling, and it is not something i bought. You don't have to spend ages either. 15 minutes a day to start with, as long as it is every day - sure you can have the odd day off. But you should sustain it for a fair while to get something out of it. A bit before and a bit after your practice won't be that much out of your combat and form time. If as you say you are interested, just find a couple of simple qigongs to do and stand, you can combine the intention/circulation method in o standing also if you want.. I can't advise you how to begin - a teacher is best, or you could lay out a few quid for some media - I have found YMMA to be a good source for this sort of thing. It won't cost you that much. Learn by doing, if you give it a fair shot and it's not for you. Then at least you'll know won't you. No amount of asking or reading will give you that. But reading up on the methods and ideas will be of value, if you take it in and practice with an open mind about it and treat like a paradigm - because yes this stuff does come from a different culture,languages and past times most of us are not at first familier with and sometimes it may be hard to trust that.. But more important trust yourself! Well I'm not really making that claim to you here, as yet because you can take or leave the philosophical side if you just want to make it about supplementing combat. Which is the bit i tried to focus on . This is not a martial arts claim, but a metaphysical one made by certain traditions and cultures. Originating from times gone by.. If you want to understand it better then i suggest looking into taoism eg. lao tzu, i ching etc. maybe buddhism (eg. prana), also the philosophical idea of paradigms might help if you struggle to accept this sort of thing. But yea if metaphysics and philosophy is not for you, then probably best to leave it and stick to the Modern medical & scientific view/ terms. Leave the wierd stuff to us tree huggers I'm sure you do. By nature I mean that which is living or that which provides and sustains life. Just like we have 'steam', so does a plant. It receives direct energy from sunlight. It also needs water for the most part. though nature is very tough and can survive in tough conditions. For example I don't envisage a slab of concrete to have much qi.. So although at one time or other it was part of the natural earth and even though technically all matter does equal energy at sub atomic levels - being a slab of concrete, I wouldn't class it as being an energetic part of living nature. Like you or I, or a tree, the atmosphere, creatures, the oceon etc. All these thing rely on eachother to make up what we know as nature. So basically what i meant by that was that nature has inherent lifeforce - or energy that makes it something we see as alive or to phrase it another way - animated. Another part of this is how connected you think or feel nature is, or perhaps how connected you are to it.. I don't think you should take time away from anything that is important to you. But if you want to try something different, and give it a fair shot. You should make time - you don't need that much of it. To begin with a couple of exercise for 5 minutes each done well will be worth it. That may not be as easy as it sounds to you.. Do you do any standing practice by the way? I would hope that you would find a bit of standing and a couple of simple qigongs a meaningful to your IMA practice in some way shape or form. Even if it is only to find out for yourself if they have any value to you. I can firmly say that they have to me, and it was at no extra cost at all.. I must have been born under a lucky star or something! The specific area is practicing with your mind and breathing.. Yea, but standing and qi gong will target how you use your mind and breath and how that relates to your physical body and the way you utilise your force/ energy - source of energy. Maybe it sounds kooky, but yea sure you do have it.. Trust me one more time when i say, it will only be clearer once you give it a good try. You may do that and think it's cobblers, or you may like it. And even then it may not even be clear cut. Things seldom are. But you shouldn't let that stop you. If it's what you want, i hope you find it. I do believe in miracles!
You may have posted it before, in which case soz for not payin attention in class! ...but can you outline what qigong you practise daily Mr cloudyhandzman?
There are some pretty good beginning qigong books and DVDs. The book I'd recommend is The Way of Energy by Lam Kam Chuen. It's mainly about Zhan Zhuang(Standing) and also includes a nice section on the Eight Pieces of Brocade. http://www.amazon.com/Way-Energy-Ga...3712804?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173262181&sr=1-1 Terry Dunn's Chi Kung for Health(Five Standing Meditations) is a good DVD. Three of the five meditations are just Standing(after a preliminary breathing sequence) and the other two involve movement which in this system is done extremely slowly which I especially like. http://www.amazon.com/Chi-Kung-Heal...7-2341711?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1173261347&sr=1-1 A couple more good DVDs are Yang Jwing Ming's Eight Pieces of Brocade(thorough examination of both the standing and seated sets) http://www.amazon.com/Eight-Simple-...7-2341711?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1173261555&sr=1-1 and Garri Garripoli's Qigong Beginning Practice(very movement oriented). http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...7918527-2341711?ie=UTF8&qid=1173261347&sr=1-1 I do them all from time to time and get different benefits from each. I'm not a fan of seated qigong though--just a personal preference.
Hey taijibutterflydude, I'm currently focusing on the Heaven-Man-Earth business. The pay is warm. Of course I have a couple of chubby fingers in a couple of fatty pies from time to time. There's that one called 'lifting the sky' and maybe one called 'carrying ze moon' .. i like doing a nice spiny wave one too as often as possible, which is on Dr Yang classical Yang style dvd in the qigong set, there is a similar exercise taught through ukneijia. Yakshemash!
I like those two too. I practice them both along with "heaven man earth" and "3-Circle". Cloudhandz, have you ever tried the pushing mountains set? Very good for increasing force in the hands I understand James
I tried it I think and it is nice, but my handz have since attained the heavenly cloud force tm Don't know how though J.. it happened amidst a crack of thunder and a bolt of lightning.
While I generally agree with challenging wishy-washy-new-agey type notions inherent in MA's and think that jkroyza does usually make quite convincing arguments there are some over generalisations in her posts that I think are incorrect... though she or anyone else is welcome to correct me if she disagrees . From the first records we have it seems that Taoism was a kind of self cultivation practice not clearly delineated as a school until much later and I sincerely doubt that as such it was ever entirely divorced from 'folk religion' or actively opposing the practices. It only really became a strong force opposing other religions after it became an 'organised religion' with the rise of the Celestial Masters church. I take your point that Taoism seems to have changed after the CM church and the subsequent Taoist sects from something focusing on acceptance and going with the flow to something focused on gaining immortality and developing special powers but essentially all I'm trying to say is that your summary of the Taoist development seems far too simplistic and to be based more on serving your argument than representing the true picture. I would say that Taoism was never even in its early stages an entirely rational and non-metaphysical system. Not necessarily... it could also be seen as a form of self cultivation. This is in line with most early philosophical Taoist teachings (and even with later religious teachings) which suggest that the more you practice self cultivation the more personal 'power' you would develop. This is a big theme in the Tao Te Ching were self cultivation is linked strongly to the power to rule. This is an argument based on your own personal religious convictions PLUS your interpretation of your chosen religious text. This is not an objective or valid argument against Qigong by any stretch of the imagination unless one happens to share your religious beliefs. I don't know if you intended this as an objective argument or merely your own personal belief but if you meant the former rather than the latter then I'd say this is a very poor argument. You overreacted in the extreme to this comment and the subsequent clarification that jkroyza was being flippant. The point jkroyza was making was that doing any actions with a haunting Chinese melody playing in the background seems to immediately make it classifiable as Qigong as it creates the impression of something mystical going on. This was highlighted by Cloudhandz video of someone up a mountain doing a form while two people played flutes behind him- I would also add to jkr's observation that wearing silk clothes is another means to establish your Qigong as authentic. It seems an entirely valid point that people often dress up things in an exotic/mystical format to help create the impression tha there is something inherently mystical/authentic about what they are doing. Anyway I don't think the distance between you all is that great. Everyone seems to admit there are charlatans and extremely debatable forms of Qigong out there. Jkroyza just seems to go farther than most- perhaps placing her in the extremely sceptical side... which probably has alot more to do with her view that the actual point of martial arts like Tai Chi is to learn a self defence/martial system. In contrast to this position those opposing her seem to regard such things as more as a general self cultivation system with martial implications. Thats a bit of a generalisation but I think it holds true. To an outsider of 'IMA' I think onyomi's perspective seems the most balanced as he seems to reject wishy-washy explanations and practices and yet still practices what seems to me to be quite a traditional system complete with things like Qigong and offers clear non metaphysical explanations as to why he does so.
Rubbish... :woo: I made that comment as jkz hadnt answered it the first time I asked her. I was trying to communicate. This is, after all, a FORUM And for the record, I have been doing Qigong for many years at various schools and seminars, and have never seen anyon doing it with silky jimjams and haunting music. nor has anyone invited me to join a satanic cult. One of us must get out more.
