The links between Taekkyon and TKD differ depending on who you speak to. Most TKD practitioners I've met [3rd Dan and above] say Taekkyon was a direct progenitor of TKD. On the other hand, all the Taekkyon practitioners I've met or e-mailed say the two have no links at all, and they get quite upset at Taekkyon being called "TKD's ancestor". In fact, a nice Korean fellow at the Korean Traditional Taekkyon Association headquarters in Seoul sent me an e-mail explaining there are no records of Gen. Choi studying Taekkyon (certainly not with Song Duk-Ki at least, the man credited with keeping the art alive). But then, why would an art that was practiced in secret during the Japanese occupation keep records anyway? I think the truth of Taekkyon's influence on TKD will only ever be based on personal opinion. As someone who has done both arts, my opinion is that they are completely unrelated.
It's from Amazon.com: General Choi Hong Hi, Founder of Korean Art of Tae Kwon Do -D: General Choi Hong Hi, Bob Wall: Movies & TV ... a pretty good watch.
Just a quick update. The hardback version of Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul is now available worldwide via not only Amazon UK and US, but also Amazon Canada, Germany, France, Japan & China. Stuart Ps. hope thats okay to post as a lot have asked about it and it was delayed a little
Old thread, but I only recently purchased this book, even though I no longer train in TKD. The biggest criticism I have is I thought the style it was written in was a little to informal, a little to much 'internet forum' rather than 'professional publication'. That's just personal opinion though, the content was very good, very interesting reading - almost enough to get me to pick up TKD again. I didn't agree with all of the applications for various techniques in the forms, but it does make one think and I did enjoy the book enough that I'll be sure to get volume 2 when it comes out. One other, shallow, observation...I liked the physical size of the book. Not so huge as to be difficult to hold and read, large enough for a good selection of photos / page. It was a comfortable book to sit in a recliner before going to bed and read. Is there any rough ETA on when vol 2 will be available?
Thanks - thats really good to know too. I guess when I was writting it, I write from the POV of an instructor speaking to students, rather than a total authoratarian (!) type way, if that makes sense! But I did miss out all the jokes I usually make within classes Wow - cool. Again.. cool. Its fine for people not to agree with every app. it was expected, the main idea, which I dont think I made clear enough in vol 1, was to get people thinking, offer some food for thought and maybe/hopefully get them experimenting/researching into that side themselves and ultimatly, make their patterns practice more productive overall. Interesting point, thanks. The first edition was bigger, but the 2nd edition was shrunk to a suitable hardback size and at first I found it wierd as everything is smaller (the big size was chose for a technical manual point of view) but I like the new size now and volume 2 is going to be the same I think. I am working on it right now, so its full steam ahead, except for the fact my computers just gone 'kaplonk' - but when its back, I will get on it again. For now I am spending time researching and going over old research etc. ready for my computers heroic return in a few days, to make Vol 2 as good as I can. I can't say exactly when it will be out, some chapters are done, others are in note form and need photos/layouts, some chapters need more reseach and one I completed then binned cos I wasnt happy with it + lots of photos need to be shot, but feel I should be finished on my side in around 6 months or so, all going well, then its down to the publisher etc. Stuart
I received this book for Christmas and just want to share the reactions of a color belt who has learned all the forms covered in Vol 1 but none in Vol 2 First of all, it is evident how much work has gone into this obvious labor of love. I have to commend the author on the exhaustiveness of his research. It will certainly improve my practice and i recommend it highly. However, as a beginning practitioner I have two minor complaints. Primarily, the applications in the encyclopedia (which i do not own so cannot reference) are only vaguely addressed which, while i understand the intent of the author to forge a deeper understanding of applications, limits the ability of this reader to see the basic striking interpretations befor the more grappling oriented ones (despite disclaiming otherwise few blocks are blocks demonstrated as such so much as grabs/throws). Additionally, i am only able to understand some of the more intricate details of some of those grappling techniques due to recently picking up hapkido. This is in no way a knock on the book so much as a knock on my level of basic understanding and how this book relates to it. As someone below dan grades, it would be very helpful if the book presented the general's applications first and then the authors as well as if the author in his applications went into a little more detail about how some joint locks and breaks apply. However, the book is already thick and i understand if the author decided that such sections were outside the scope of the book. Many reviewers note how this is a book for all taekwondo practitioners and while i do echo that sentiment, i would like to make it clear that not all taekwondo practitioners have been exposed to the same depth of training as the author writes his students receive. This does not mean the book isn't invaluable (it is), it just means that readers should have a comprehensive understanding of basic applications and principles of joints which may require other, supplemental reading for less advanced students like myself. Stuart, thank you for your time and contribution to the art. There is also a reference to a text by colin wee entitled fighting heaven and earth which also seems to be a very interesting analysis of chang hon which i hope to read sometime after spending some more time on your text. I look forward to advancing in the art so that i can also advance to volume 2! EDIT: After writing this, I went to look at Choi's applications and I can understand Mr. Anselm's move away from them. Literally, every punch is a punch and every block is a block. Unfortunately, I am having difficulties tracking the movements in combination (even something as simple as the opening of Won-Hyo seems to be demonstrated as three separate techniques as opposed to one combination against one attacker... and then on the other side there are two attackers, one of whom is only blocked once and never seen again!) I commend Mr. Anselm's work developing these applications, but it sincerely seems to me he developed them from bunkai which may or may not have been instructed to the Korean marines who served in Vietnam which the book references as validation of the art's brutal history. Additionally, a discussion of the use of elbows as an anecdote for lost techniques seemingly disappears for much of the rest of the text. What I am saying is that there seem to be two ideas here -- that Taekwondo as a mixed martial art has lost much of its brutality and that there are hidden applications in the forms -- that get merged together to rationalize the text. While I commend the author for investigating deeper into the art, I feel like the basic applications miss much analysis as part of it (for example, in the encyclopedia some photos show the attacker kneeling so low kicks are aimed to the head... but there is no set up for knocking the attacker down!). While this book provides a very interesting mental lesson in further applications and visualizations for solo practice (for which I am gratefully indebted to the author), I would be interested if anyone had some good referrals for a more in depth discussion of the original applications, as now I may be more confused than ever! Thank you all for your patience with a novice
Thats great.. all opinions are valid... but there isnt a Vol 2 as yet though! Thank you. Okay, allow me to address this. First of all you need to understand the mindset of myself when the book was being written. It was written very much with a 'black belt state of mind' meaning it was written with black belts as the focus and the reason for this is simple, black belts should already know all the techniques and be able to execute them as they are required within the patterns, where as kup grades are still learning and refining them (even if they have been used to pass gradings etc. - they often do not know them in the 'instictive' detail required for true application practice. Black belts also have the time to practice applications and gain a better understanding of them, whereas Kup grades are usually moving onto a new pattern or the requirements for their next grading. This is not to be dismissive of Kup level students, as I believe they can gain a lot from the book, just that black belts have the time and skills to appropriate to move into this area more fully. I can see where your coming from, but in all honesty any 'grappling type' techniques arnt really that intricate and with a little practice, plus if you follow the movement of the actual pattern technique and finally, adhere to the chapter regarding how 'reaction' hand/grips work. Most of my students have no grappling experince apart from what we do at class (which includes the throws included in TKD which may help) and pick them up pretty quickly after a little practice - though I guess an instructor and seniors helps a fair bit here! This goes back to the Dan grade thing I mentioned before - by that time a black belt should know the 'standard' taught applications, so there is no need to reproduce them (plus of course most of them are the same/similar anyway), as apart from page space (which would almost double the book size) I think its ultimatly pointless re-producing apps that IMO don't even work (in the main) and are ultimatly pointless. Or for those that do work (ie. the occasionaly block and many strikes) it seems pointless repeating them as they are taught in most dojangs (AFAIA) anyway! Not sure what you mean regarding more details on locks and breaks - they apply as an SD technique - a broken arm for example makes it imobile and thus a useless tool for another attack - plus of course it will most likely put the attacker off altogethor OR do you mean how they work (ie. regarding joints etc.)? That is something each student should perhaps approach their instructor about. The book is based on a full and comprehensive syllabus of TKD - if a school isnt teaching that, theres not much I can do.. such details could indeed be numerous and infinate after all! Colin sadly never released his book, though if you email him (he can be found on the web easily) he may let you see it! Now you know why I didnt repeat them and my reasoning as well! I presume your speaking of Gen Chois text - that is one of my issues also! As it says in the book, many went 'beyond' the official applications and experimented/taught their own that were more inline with their position as soldiers. They were not the 'standard' but were part of it, to a degree, hence the reference. Not sure what you are refering to here - please expand (ie. page number etc.) No, there is only one idea - that the TKD taught today is more than the some of its parts - some took that on board years ago, others didnt and some still don't - but it remains true none the less! You seem to be mixing the two books up here the Encys of TKD may show that sort of stuff, but mine do not, as techniques set up the next etc. theres no 'mystery' phase! The practice of applications should be joint practice, never solo - patterns are the solo/mental part that is almost never expanded on sadly! Train with Master Willie Lim next time hes about or train with Iain Abernethy and do the maths - or come train with me one day (I do the odd seminar)! Thanks again for your input, Stuart
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. As I said, this is simply from the perspective of a higher grade kup level practitioner and I really respect your articulate answers as well as your willingness to be open to the community and discuss with any and all who come here, regardless of experience. I will only respond to a few portions just to clarify where I am coming from, but I would again like to emphasize how much I have learned from your book and now this discussion. Unfortunately, my TKD curriculum has not yet included throws (not sure if they're even including, but I will defer to my ignorance). Nor has my hapkido work. Again, just a distinction that those from some schools may need further materials to grasp. I recently got Marc Tedeshi's volume on hapkido which I will refer to for now. I will fully admit that my impatience to learn may be a greater issue here than the Hae Sul book. :love: I think the stem of my confusion is in your dismissal of the General's applications. I don't understand how someone could create a military fighting system without practicality on the surface, but with such encoded depth. Then isn't there a need to try and better learn what sort of situation Choi imagined? Your book articulates his low dan level impacted his understanding, but by the time he wrote the encyclopedia he would've been much more experienced. It makes sense that as the Hae Sul book notes each move could have multiple applications, which would yield levels of complexity where one level informs the next. I apologize that I missed that in the book which is funny considering it comes before a sentence about how "many miss this important point." It makes a lot of sense to me and I can more clearly understand the relationship between your text and the encyclopedia. How many of your applications come from karate bunkai vs. military development? The former is listed first in your application research section which led me to believe that was the emphasis of the book's understanding. I can't find it, but I thought I read a quote in your book from someone regarding how his Tae Kwon Do practice included elbow striking for all angles. I could easily be misremembering and I was only thinking that if that quote were in the book then I would expect to see elbows in the patterns as well beyond the obvious like in Yul Gok. I will again defer to my ignorance and assume I am misplacing the quote. EDIT: Found it - Yi, Yun Wook mentions it in his foreword. I think my confusion here is evident. But at least I'm not crazy! I did not express myself well. Your book does a fantastic job linking each move to the next and engaging the moves as combinations. Again, my confusion here is in not understanding how and why Choi's does not. It seems that we are missing something and my question is whether there is actually something there in the encyclopedic applications or not. I understand your point of view here, but this may be something that kup grades would want to discuss with their instructor after engaging your book. As a student whose instructor teaches the encyclopedic applications, I do not have a training partner with which to practice your applications and so have relied on visualization to introduce it to my patterns thus far. I was thinking of giving my instructor your book, but hesitated because I thought it may be presumptuous. I may schedule private sessions to go over my understanding of both sets of applications, which could be something for other kup grade readers to think about as well. I would be honored and hope that I hear of any if you happen to visit to Los Angeles or when I have the ability to travel to the UK, however I am convinced I would learn much more from you all when I reach dan grades! I cannot thank you enough for taking the time for such a considerate response. We are privileged to live in an age where are are able to learn from masters across the world who enrich our understanding of our art through thoughtful and well-meaning conversation. I look forward to re-reading your book and referring to it from time to time. I am sure I will get even more out of it the more I look at it. Thanks again
You mean your schools - TKD's syllabus does I`m afraid, but a lot of schools do not teach them. I guess for the few throws there are in the book, a few do's and don't's may have been appropriate. Apologies on that, an oversight on my part. Its explained in the "Wheres the applications Chapter" and further expanded on in an article I wrote, titled "Taekwon-Do's Black Hole" in issue 1 of TotallyTKD magazine (www.totallytkd.com) Firstly, I am not dismissive of Gen choi's dan level at the time he created TKD - in fact I am often in discussion about how for a Korean of that time, it was decidedly higher than the "2" may indicate in these modern times. Its not experience that mattered, its understanding the original subject matter, which for him was Shotokan, that wasnt fully understood by those that taught him - so, IMO, he did a decent job for the tools at hand. However, if someone shows someone else that a screwdriver is for hammering in nails and there is no info to the contary, that falsehood is carried forwards and was so in the development of TKD - again, see the article I mentioned earlier for full details. MANY did miss that important point.. like most of the TKD world - though the exceptions show that not all followed without questioning. The only problem was that NO-ONE was able/allowed to question a 2 star General, so it remained in small pockets. Instructors during the war certainly did make thier own applications for the moves beyond the 'official' explanations - I once saw some (pretty sick) pictures of them testing techniques on POW's to see their effect, which included broken arms and dead prisioners - pretty sick as I said. They were in a Korean jornal someone sent me once and I cant find them now sadly, but they are online somewhere! I know what you are refering to now and he is correct - however, not all techniques are found in the patterns.. my books cover the patterns, not basics (of which the various elbows strike can be counted), there is much 'extra' stuff not 'officially' found in the patterns (like throws) that need to be trained! Its due to the history of how he learnt kata, that then became patterns. many are copied combinations (sometimes slightly modified) with little or no explanation given to Gen Choi beyond basic P/S/B - so effectly he took a move, than added what it does to it, rtaher than the other way around of developing a move for a specific task. Simply mention it to him first - check out his thoughts (sadly some are very blinkered so beware) - but.. if it interests him, then lend him the book and perhaps suggest practing some in class on occassion! LA may be sooner than you think ;-) No problem, but I'm not a master, just someone with a love for the art of TKD. Stuart
I bought this book and loved it!! I then bought vol 2 of the encyclopedia of tkd patterns, which I'd mistaken for vol 2 of this!! I was gutted!! As The books jumped from Toi-Gye to Po-eun!! I have only this minute realised my mistake!! lol, I'll have to go buy Vol 1 now!! great books though, if only my stupidity didn't get in the way!!
Another quick plug for Stuarts book, and wondering if Vol 2 is still in the works? I checked Amazon, they have nothing on vol 2 yet.
All his books are great! I think Vol 2 of this set, was put on hold, while he did the 3 vols of the other set. Maybe now he can get those finished as well!
Okay, thanks for the resurection! I can comfirm that Vol 2 is definatly on the cards, but taking a lot longer than expected, due to a number of reasons: a. My life changed - I had a new child (Jorja, shes lovely) b. My club changed - The old premises was knocked down and replace by a 'centre'. Previously we had 24 hour access, now we simply have 'class time' c. Other reasons. One of the other reasons is that I wasnt 100% happy with all the apps in vol. 1, so I decided to correct that in Vol.2.. but realised, this could never be the case as some combinations simply do not translate. I have spent 5 years trying to resolve certain things and simply cannot find the answers - so, IMO, none exsist... so I go with what I can now, which is not what I wanted to do! A number of chapters are compelete (Hwa-Rang, Choong-Moo, Ge-Baek and Eui-Am), others are partially done (meaning we need to take more photos), others still need to be laid out (ie. research is done but need to make it 'book worthy), and still some research needs to be done. TBH, my main issue's are two things - firstly the photo's - for the first book we had 24 hour access to the dojang, plus a dedicated photographer.. now we have 'class time' and our original photograher has moved, so its now slow going. Secondly, I have held myself back because I am not happy with some of the stuff eg. Knifehand guarding block in rear foot stance (in Kwang-Gae) etc. though am slowly working on stuff like that - I have an excellent app now btw. In short, its getting there, more slowly than I hoped, but give me six months to a year and you`ll have it. Thanks for your interest still, Stuart Ps. The patterns books were an off-shoot of this, that I first thought would be easy and then realised needed full time attention. PPs. Thanks for revitaizng this thread, I read through it and smiled, espcially my correspondence with Thomas.. it made me smile.
Heh heh heh - I jump as quick as I can when I see an update to this page. Everyone I've shared book 1 with has loved it and I would love to get my mitts on book 2 as soon as it's ready. I want the patterns books as well (on my Amazon wish list) We had a great little discussion on this one - you won my everlasting respect with your contributions, arguments, and ideas.
Cool. Thanks my friend. Wow.. I am humbled by your kind comments - thanks. I would 'thank' you for this post, but I can't use the 'thank' buttons :-( Stuart
Because I have to log on here using a proxy server.. as I can't log in directly - a fault the Mods could never find a reason for btw! And by logging on that way, I cant use any of the buttons, 'thank' button, 'formatting' buttons, 'smilies' etc... I add them all by hand :-( Though weirdly enough I can use the 'quote' button! So thanks for the thanks... someone needs to thank you now on my behalf! Stuart
