Can't punch can't fight

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Humblebee, Jan 30, 2005.

  1. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Well neither is being able to punch, or grapple. If I can knock you out with one kick, I don't need to puch. If I can break your neck, I don't need to punch or kick.

    And if I have a .44, I need none of the above.
  2. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Having a great kick does not help you when your on the floor. A punch can as its easier to land.

    Perhaps thats the point.
  3. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Of course it does. Haven't you ever heeled someone in the nuts when they were standing over you trying to stomp on you? If you're on your back, and I'm trying to stomp you, you won't be able to reach me with your hands, but hey, the legs are longer ...
  4. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    You don't need any formal training to win a street fight. Good training is useful, but kicking would be the least of my concerns if I was training for "the street".
  5. Scarlet Mist

    Scarlet Mist Banned Banned

    Well guess what, punching isn't all that useful either. The most practical training would be weapons, no. Since cats are prone to pull out a .44 on you, or grab a metal pipe.
  6. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    no need for formal training, huh. now that really depends. given the ability of the average untrained ****, yeah, i'd say no biggie, if you wanna be one of the untrained random cocks flailing wildly with no real direction. given the tendency of weapons to enter the scenario in a heartbeat. i'd say yeah, u need to know how to handle a gun and knife. but even without weapons. wouldn't u wanna be that much more secure and aware?
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2005
  7. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    i would say. kicking to dictate the ranges. remember if you are fighting a random normal person and you land one solid kick, weather it be head, torso, leg. one its gonna have the desired effect of pain. and secondly its proably gonna scare the **** out of the guy.

    most importantly i'd say train the phsycological factors. locking and stand up grappling come to mind when i hear "Effectiveness"
  8. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    hmm...sounds racist to me.....j/k :D
  9. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    you are missing the point. the statement was that if you can't punch you can't fight- no debate about whether further training will make you more effective.
  10. wcrevdonner

    wcrevdonner Valued Member

    Situations without a weapon...

    Look at two people on the street without no skill. They can't punch - and they certainly can't fight.

    Can anyone give me an example of a situation with a fight (and above stipulation) where a punch is never needed to be thrown.

    Stats would show that majority of unarmed fights will always end up with 'punches' being thrown.

    So I would agree that if you don't know how to punch, you don't know how to fight.
  11. Hero

    Hero New Member

    I think he just means as if you cant punch u cant fight maybe resulting in if ur too sacred to throw a punch or move ur body in general maybe cause of fear and such.. i dont know thats just what i thought agahaha :p
  12. oni_sensei

    oni_sensei Valued Member

    Show me these 'stats' you speak of. Oh, by the way, you asked for an example. Here you go:

    Two guys accidentally collide in the middle of the street, the larger of the two has had one too many drinks and has a major lack of self-control. He lashes out, yelling at the other guy, swearing and abusing, grabs him by the collar, and promptly headbutts him straight on the bridge of the nose. Drunk man then pushes other man onto the pavement. Smaller man falls to ground with broken nose, bleeding profusely, not to mention a fractured skull from smacking his head ont the cement. Not a single punch was thrown. Simple, neh?

    It doesn't take skill to grab somebody, or cause pain. The key factor here is surprise. Just because you can't "fight" for crap doesn't mean you can't fight. All it takes is something to set you off, then your instincts take over.
  13. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    I suspect that the guy who originally said "if you can't punch you can't fight" didn't actually mean "you can't fight at all", he just worded it badly when really he meant "if you can't punch you lack a very important skill".
  14. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    The only time I have been on the floor they have as well. If you ended up on the floor and can only use your legs to heel kick someone that does require no training at all and everyone can do it.

    Better use your hands and not end up on the floor I feel.
  15. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I think in the event above if either party could punch they would have a major advantage. Punching is key 100%, you have hands so use them.

    In order to apply a lock or any other restraint technique you need to first grab the person then manipulate them. In the time it takes for 2 actions doing this you could hit someone twice causing harm both times.

    I can grapple fairly well but if I am really in trouble I will strike to injure first then restrain as the result it quicker.
  16. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    for this point I was at a seminar when this statement was made by the same person and looking around the room (not wishing to be arrogant) but there were dan grade people who could not throw a decent punch.

    This is the observation and if they do a striking art (most did) then what chance have they of using what they have learnt.
  17. Artikon

    Artikon Advertise here ask me how

    In my opinion, and I think through this only one person has mentioned this, punching is a fundamental. I feel most people are taking this statement of can't punch can't fight statement to literally.

    What is something that people are always going to revert to in a self defense situation? (taking from the view of Mo being a RBSD person)

    Everyone will revert back to basics, and what the practice most. It isn't really natural to throw a spin hook kick in this situation as people generally don't train this type of situation and attack over and over again. Reaction is going to be greatly increased as the technique get simpler and simpler.

    Now that being said whether your fundamentals revolve around punching, kicking, or grabbing is a different story. For myself I do think punching is vital, but is not the be all or end all. I only say it's vital because of its simplicity. Easy to learn, easy to use, easy to apply. Hand hits other guy as hard as you can. When we talk about grappling, kneeing, and even my favorite of kicking, there are many other things that have to happen first.

    Grappling of course you have to come in contact, gotta pass the hands first, what's a good way? By understanding punching and how to move with it, intercept, deflect, and block. Same thing with knees. For a knee to the face, unless the attacker is a midget how are you going to get their face into a comfortable position so you can knee them without doing a superman leap?

    Again I think the statement is being taken to literally.
  18. Timmy Boy

    Timmy Boy Man on a Mission

    That depends, were they predominantly strikers?
  19. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Mostly and to be fair a good 80% of the people there I know untrained friends of mine who could give them a good pasting.

    Most were from trad striking styles of TKD and Karate / Kung - Fu etc. Now I am not narrow minded enough to say this is the norm but they quality shown at that seminar was very poor for many people.

    Striking is easy and if you do a kata based art and want the art side more to get belts etc then that is fine. I think a number of martial arts students and instructors are pretty unaware of what needs to be included in a total package for real defence.

    Most were shattered after 30 seconds of focus mit hitting and they were not really even going hell for leather. It shows poor fitness, co-ordination and an inability to apply what they learnt.

    I think this is the point Mo is making in his statement and at the specific seminar I was at with him it certainly rang true, most people there did not want to hear it but it was true.
  20. tekkengod

    tekkengod the MAP MP

    but the statement "can't punch, can't fight" is totally untrue. i bet you a thousand dollars find me a random guy and i'll have him on his ass in a kimura with out any punches being thrown.

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