Can you spot the fake koryu?

Discussion in 'Koryu Bujutsu' started by iB1337, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    Can you spot the fake koryu?

    [ame=""]YouTube - Tenshinsho Jigenryu students at Kameido shrine 2005[/ame]

    [ame=""]YouTube - Battojutsu highlights[/ame]

    [ame=""]YouTube - Ogawa Ryu Kenjutsu Toritake Gohon Me Seiteigata[/ame]

    [ame=""]YouTube - IAIDO TAMIYA RYU[/ame]
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    OK I will bite.

    First one I liked although I imagine they are students not masters.

    Forth one I liked.

    Second and third...nonsense.
  3. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Bite 2 - which is a lot easier given koyo's input.

    I have very little exposure to koryo arts (which I look on with a lot of interest and respect) - but I will give it a pop.

    As koyo pointed out vids 1 + 4 look entirely credible. In vid 1, the partiicpants look youthfull, which may explain koyo's interpretation of students, not masters; and in 4 the principle participant is clearly of some seniority.

    As for vids 2+ 3, there does seem to be a lack of fluency of execution in the handling of the katana/boken cuts, and there is also something slightly odd/non-convincing about the participants' body language. However, in both cases, the participants could be relatively junior in their experience, and the style/rhyu entirely valid.

    Im going to stick my neck out by guessing somewhat and say that the fake one is 2. I have seen it before, and something lingers in my mind about it.

    Everything I have written here could be complete bosh.

    IB1337, at some time you are going to tell us the answer?

    On a secondary point here, is there someone here I can PM some questions to reg. AikiJitsu in the UK?
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  4. drosera99

    drosera99 Valued Member

    Ogawa-ryu has been discussed on various forums at length. I see no reason to beat that dead horse here.

    There is nothing I could find on or about the second video implying that their art is koryu. I don't see how it qualifies as a "fake koryu" if no one ever represented it as such. It obviously isn't koryu. It seems to be one of many modern batto styles probably created in the west. You and I may think it is silly but I see no evidence suggesting that it is dishonestly representing itself.

    So, what is the purpose of this thread?

    Edit: Also, Tamiya-ryu awards dan ranks. Just fyi. :)
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Is the second video from the Seibukan, Their not koryu, and they never said they were koryu, theres a good introduction to their art here:

    ''Seibukan Jujutsu was designed by Sensei Julio Toribio to be the art that he would have liked to have studied as a young practitioner. Consequently, it’s a welcome addition to the world martial arts, with a unique structure that can produce enormous growth in a comparatively short period of time. Everything he believes a quality martial artist should know is included in the system, gathered from his experience as a 7th degree black belt in Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu (Sandaikichu), a 5th degree black belt in Aikikai Aikido, a 2nd degree black belt in Okinawan Kempo Karate, a 6th degree black belt in Enshin Itto Ryu Batto Jutsu (iaido), and a 10th degree black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (ninjutsu).

    Seibukan Jujutsu was partially formed as a reaction to Hakko-Ryu Jujutsu and aikido, both being direct descendants of Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu. He had completed all the technical requirements in both systems, and thought it necessary to utilize a tight structure in his new art, in order to deliver to students the techniques he had mastered in the most efficient way possible.

    When Seibukan was created, it sought to go beyond the rigid all-kata structure of Hakko-Ryu, while still avoiding what Sensei saw as a pitfall of modern aikido training. He felt aikido classes were a bit too nebulous and the structure provided for students wasn’t clear enough in guiding them to their next level. ''

    and a background for the Batto:

    ''During Toribio Sensei's travels to Japan, he met Kenshinsai Machida Sensei, the Nidai Soke of Enshin Itto lyyu Batto Jutsu system and was accepted as his direct student (jikideshi). In November 1993 he was promoted to Shodan and promoted to Nidan in May 1995. In April 1996 he was tested and promoted to Shoden in Nen Ryu Batto Jutsu by Machida Sensei. Later that year he was again tested and subsequently promoted to Yondan in Enshin Itto Ryu Batto Jutsu. In Nov 97, Toribio Sensei was promoted to Godan (5th Dan) and in 1998, to Rokudan (6th Dan).''
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  6. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    1-3 are not koryu.
  7. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    Also Mr. Machida doesn't have any authority to teach anything but his karate.
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Ahh, that makes sense, Id heard there were 'issues' with the style, there is a few dojo in the USA that seem to be connected to it.

    I take it this Mr Machida, is nothing to do with the World famous karateka Ryoto Machida?
  9. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Lyoto Machida is the son of Yoshizo Machida, who moved to Brazil from Japan in or around 1968. I've never heard either Yoshizo or Lyoto mention a relative named Kenshinsai who still lives in Japan and does Koryo arts. Could be a cousin of Yoshizo or something, though. I don't know how common the name "Machida" is.
  10. Decision Tree

    Decision Tree Valued Member

    Seems a bit of a stretch.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Its unlikely, It wasnt a direct question, more of drawing a parallel between the two, badly worded and all.
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2009
  12. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    2nd clip... all I will say is there's a serious injury waiting to happen and I genuinely hope it doesn't result in a death.
  13. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    I don’t know how many dan grade stripes this guy has on his belt but, if this is typical of the quality being taught, I'd be walking out the door.

    There are so many fundamental aspects missing from the technique it defies space here to describe them. - Kihon is entirely missing.
  14. Ferran

    Ferran Valued Member


    he seems to be using American kenpo uniformity: black gi plus wide red stripe for 5th dan. I've seen worse, but it kinda gives you a glimpse of the mindset, does it not?

    Keep well.
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I cant view the video, but if its of Roy Dean, then he's a black belt in BJJ, and the red stripe is a norm for that.

    AFAIK its only BJJ that he teaches, even though he is a legitamate dan grade under the Aikikai.
  16. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    Oh, the purpose of the thread was to see if people can notice koryu from non- koryu at a glance.
  17. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    ... and isn't that what we've been discussing ?

    You can't post clips, in this instance, asking if people can "spot" a genuine koryu against one which isn't, and not expect people, especially those involved in legitimate old-school to refrain from expressing an opinion.
  18. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    I was answering a question from someone about the purpose of my post.

    I'm not sure what you are going on about exactly, but yeah that's the point to hear opinions from people that do and don't. Kind of the purpose of a forum in general now isn't it?
  19. drosera99

    drosera99 Valued Member

    Okay. My first question would be why? Do you care if people can recognize koryu? Does it matter? If so why?

    Secondly, the title of this thread does not ask if people can recognize koryu. It asks if people can recognize fake koryu. This seems to imply that you are accusing the groups there that aren't koryu of misrepresenting themselves.

    I can't find anything on the batto style that indicates that it has ever represented itself as koryu. As for the Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu, the people who know know it's gendai! I don't know much at all about Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu, but it is my understanding that it is a gendai kenjutsu system based on the Jigen-ryu. I don't know these people and I do not know if they have ever misrepresented their art or what kind of reputation they have in Japan. I have never seen anything that has implied that Tenshinsho Jigen-ryu is anything other than what it is. If you have, could you kindly direct us there? While I'm sure it was not your intent, labeling these groups as "fake koryu" seems very disrespectful to people who have, to my knowledge, never claimed to be doing koryu at all.
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2009
  20. iB1337

    iB1337 Valued Member

    No real reason, not particularly, nope not really and see the before mentioned answers.

    Not really, I didn't imply anything of the sort. I used video to see if people would see the differences, between koryu and non-koryu perhaps fake was a little misleading.

    Tenshinsho Jigen ryu does claim it is a koryu and not gendai. It has been proven that their version of jigen ryu could not possibly exist. There lineage a complete fiction as well as other things. It is fake.

    There is an English section if you can't read Japanese.

    The others Ogawa ryu has also claimed to be koryu, as well as the Embukan.

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