Can some people be gifted...

Sorry TQ, but all that bold writing and :bang: ing on has made your posts turn a bit ranty and I don't see why you are getting so hot and bothered.

OK - I'll try to answer a few of your points...

I think Confucius said words to the effect of "without the truth you can get nothing done" and I agree. You should tell the abused person the truth, of course, and help them to deal with the truth as best you can. Believing a lie is not good for them and potentially very harmful - they need to know that they cannot trust their abuser.

Firstly there is no need to shout and secondly I get a bit tired of people only aspiring to be as good as they perceive other people to be - we can do better than setting our standards by what we see as the social norms. If you are not striving to improve then you should be. It isn't good enough to keep on saying "oh well - no one knows everything" or "oh well - no one's perfect."

Since when? You are distorting the meanings of words here. Someone who lies is a liar - that doesn't mean they lie all the time. If they are a compulsive liar then maybe they will lie all the time or nearly all the time.
Someone who steals is a thief and someone who steals regularly is a persistent offender, habitual thief or perhaps a kleptomaniac.

Or you can practice actually hitting each other and being hit, with body armour on if required. As we hit each other lesson after lesson throughout our working week there is no need to visualise it in between.

I think that is a sick and uncharitable comment. You do yourself a disservice.

Yes, they're doing OK, thanks. On the whole, they can take the knocks too - we work from the start on getting people used to hitting and being hit. When they do their solo training between classes they can work on movement quality in a more abstract way then - they know the rules and what they're striving for. They don't have to imagine an opponent - they just have to remember working with their classmates during their last lesson because we do contact work every session.

Thanks for your answer, Carys

 

Hello Taoquan, here is some good information about C.S. Lewis.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/people/cslewis_1.shtml

I admire his writing and insights very much, though my exact views differ from his in some respects.

 

For me, it's not about that. If you really are serious about producing students who can fight, then you have to consider that anyone can learn to take pain - little kids learn it. It's the fear that matters -the fear of being hit.

Sparring on class with some contact can and does engender an entirely different mental state to an actual fight, in my experience - even a competition fight. Everyone knows in class that it won't go too far, that the stakes aren't too high. Take them out of the class, in to a real situation, and it is a totally different feeling - terror, very often, which is quite natural. Visualisation work is one of the techniques that can help with that.

Joanna - I don't believe there are any people who, during or after visualisation that they are in water, would actually begin to "blur" the lines between reality and fantasy. So, I didn't think I was insulting them - because I don't think they exist.

The only people that that could possibly happen to are people who are already severely mentally ill in some way, with no grasp on reality, in which case, it's not the visualisation that causes it.

Well that's good - i'm glad to hear it. Remember though, contact work can also create problems - each new phase of training carries with it its own new pit falls which you have to work past, on to the next phase. One pit fall is the controlled contact - it has the power to get you to a certain point, but then only to keep you at that point - in this case, the moment a person get belted properly in a real fight you're in a completely different world.

 

Don't worry - I've had plenty of real fights too, some very serious, and I know the difference between training and reality.

I think contact training in a reasonably safe environment is a good and necessary first step to eradicating the fear of being hit (and in some cases the fear of hitting). The intensity can build over time and you can practice things like eye to eye contact and play with ferocity levels as you progress. I find I tend to go emotionally numb once a real fight is underway and lose any sense of fear of pain. I think that unless you've been in real fights or really had someone try to kill you, it is hard to imagine truly what those things are like. When you have been in those situations, you don't have to imagine because you can remember. I have had to fight some dangerous people and teach martial arts purely for the reason that I do not wish others to experience the fear I have felt in the past.

We do also explore any number of real life attack scenarios, either based on students' or teachers' real experiences, or on their fears. We use a variety of other training approaches to simulate reality as accurately as possible.

 

Jk,

Not really getting "hot and bothered" I have just learned that people tend to pick out the weak points in a discussion (as is everyone's nature) when at times they were weak points b/c they were not really a topic for discussion. So at times, by using the bold I find it just directs someone's attention to something specific, so they cannot say "well you didn't 'say that!'" so it is just attention getting.

Jk,
You know I have great respect for you in what you are doing. And I wholeheartedly agreeing with you that this type of thread gets terribly drab, boring and dull. It seems these threads are the IMAs and TCCs little "style vs. style" thread that creeps up.

Then we get in terrible long and disorderly discussions on whether Qigong is right or wrong, many of us being rather stubborn and not giving any ground. So this is why I :bang: :bang: :bang: As you have mentioned yourself before.

I honestly would enjoy discussing Qigong applications and techs rather than whether or not it is right or wrong. I know you prefer to discuss the later, I know it works and have exp. both good and bad with such (personally and with friends). Once I found the right teacher or guide friends to good teachers the bad goes away. I know this is something you cannot morally agree with and that is okay, I respect that.

It is just I get tired of right and wrong threads and wish we would just get to techs and applications of either TCC, HI, PK, or (it is my preference) Qigong. These go thread go no where and often fall by the wayside while for a few days-weeks we are arguing and at each others throats. POINTLESS, we both offer great information and anyone interested in learning Qigong would benefit from all of our posts to make a good informed decision for themselves.

I think this is something best left alone, I am more than happy to speak in threads educating people on what GOOD Qigong is and I know YOU are more than happy to educate on the BAD of Qigong (as I know it is there)

This discussion is getting rather boring to me (the discussion not the posters) and we get so far off task (now we are debating psychological theory *shakes head*) we begin to lose the good information that was posted.

Julie,
I don't have time atm (midterms) to check out the link, but thanks for it I will look into it.

Take care all.

 

Well - that sounds good. Sometimes when we discuss this kind of thing, or training methods with other trainers it might sound like we're criticising, when in fact we're just looking at extended implications of methods, scenarios etc. I'm very proffesional in my drive to explore ever improving methodology.

I do believe in contact training - but one of the things not often considered is that that in itself generates its own raft of problems - in fact, each phase of training generates its own raft problems simpy because it's artificial training - it's not in the ring, or it's not a real fight. Push hands does, bag work does, pad work does - they all have detriments as well as plusses.

None of us, as trainers, can ever get round that - the same insight applies to me as much as anyone - but it's just good to have it articulated as a clear principle - and in some cases, where there's ways of phasing-up past the problems generated, to share those insights.

In this case, moderate contact will of course condition the body - and is the best starting point - but the method that has the power to get you somewhere only has the power to keep you there, in my experience. So moderate contact becomes your body's expectation - and it's a culture shock when you get really smacked, no gloves, right in the mouth, and then realise - no one is going to stop this until you die.

Well, I have and I have - I've been left for dead - and interestingly, I know you;re telling the truth because I also felt no fear. You know what I felt? Just stupid disappointment - that that was it, the end.

But what i do know is that that state can also paralyse people, not because of fear, but because of the way the mind works to shrink possibilities when we're under stress. That's an entirely mental process, and mental techniques can aid in that - it applies also to the stress of competition, even for snooker or any stress inducing event, such as phobias etc.

Well I'd be very interested to hear about those - and even more interested to see them.

 

Hi folks - all sounds good to me. The only problem I have TQ is that with regard to statements like this:

I find that whenever applications start being dicussed, instead of talking about specific fighting techniques used in specific situations, people invariably talk in terms of energy. I happily talk away in terms of body mechanics, momentum, whole body connected movement, rotation, undulation or whatever and everyone else starts talking in terms of energies and qi which I find muddies the waters. It is only too apparent that there is very little consensus about what is meant much of the time, so the discussions always seem to degenerate into vagueness, and when asked for clarity I'll frequently be told to go away and retrain with an Enlightened Master for 300 years, so I can "understand." It happens every time the energetic terminology is challanged - many advocates of that world view will haughtily patronise, imply and state in no uncertain terms that you must be a very low level idiot who simply does not understand.

If that doesn't happen, we'll be fine.

 

There have been a few threads that have not went "down that road" though I think some of the challenge also is that body mechanics is notoriously hard to talk (type) about. But much easier to show in person.

 

Well I don't understand why it is harder to say "then you shift your weight from your right leg entirely to your left and turn into your left hip (see attached photo 2; or see Youtube clip at around 0:17) than to say "it uses spiral teacake jin which travels up your du channel before turning a somersault in your lower dantian" it baffles me when people don't talk in terms of their legs, arms, torso, weight distribution, movement qualities etc. etc. I'm not averse to a bit of spine undulation if you want to get flash

And an applications discussion also needs to do a bit better than saying "ooh - my favourite technique is peng" which leaves you thinking "peng used to do what against what?"

 

I kinda agree with you Fire-quan the thing is it seems those schools that do light contact never progress past that.

You do need to start at some point to fight without pads like in the military, we went no pads and no padding on the ground. It is really the only way to develop training that will translate into the real world.

The quickness with which you take the student there to that leave is the real question.

What I use to do was train with a group that never wore pads and we developed just fine. Although there was quiet a few broken noses and ribs and arms. We trained outside after getting far enough along that we did not need pads. Also, I got away with no broken arms, lucky me.

I do not do that anymore, I guess that pretty much destroyed the meaning and point of having done it.

 

I think this is an important issue, and an important question. My answer is always that it can't have a one dimensional answer - there's a lot involved in it.

First you have to be realistic about your level and interest, in my view. Not everyone wants to heavy contact sparring. But, is surprising how heavy the contact is that we can take. Amatuer kick boxers, Thai boxers, MMA, san shou, Western boxers, even rugby and lacrosee players, generally take more physical, powerful hits than most, what we might call "hobbyist" kung fu clubs.

Moving from light contact to heavier sparring is a must, i think. However, every phase brings its own problems. Overly heavy contact, especially in all round martial arts, massively increases chance of injuries which can lay you out of training. But, every phase has its issues. Usually, we can take far heavier sparring than we think.

But then there are other issues as well. There's no way on God's earth somone Joanna's size is going to take being punched full contact by me without dying. There's no possible way for her to condition to recieve that. Just like there's no way for me to condition to being stamped on by an elephant, lol. There's always bigger, more powerful shots than we can take.

So as part of moving forwards, part of the picture is to utilise our parameters - I don't see limitations. What some see as limitations, like size, I just see as parameters, like, if someone Joanna's size (She's on youtube!) can get very fast kicking skills, or very good kicking skills, then she's a good chance of landing me one in the knackers before I can hit her - and I can't really condition myself for that, either!

Equally, is my leg going to be as strong as her shin if she gets a good thigh kick in?

For an amatuer club, there's always a limitation on contact, of course - it's not a proffesional gig at the end of the day, but it is shocking how kung fu clubs tend to have FAR less contact than amatuer muay thai, etc.

Another factor is the mental aspect - very important because it can get us past fear. Fear is hugely powerful - to exploit. Just hitting someone right int he face when they come near you can stop people wanting to come near you in a spar. The head is the centre of the senses, so it feels worse than it is when it is under attack. Now people can be trained to get over that very steadily, without just smacking them in the head - by starting with light work, with them covering their head while they take some light shots, just getting used to the idea of being hit. Ideas are very important I think - simply because the idea can hold you back from fighting. And ideas can make you mentally iron, way past your body's capability. But one of the ways of achieving that is, of course, to do some heavy sparring. But most people don't want black eyes, broke noses.

The best way to become, in terms of toughness and being up for it, is to become a pretty work-a-day fighter, like a good amatuer boxer, as your core toughness level.

 

Excellent and I agree. About the Qi thing, I respect it's existence as a valid concept for its time to explain a different universe of understanding, one which I doubt we know much about these days, so it makes more sense to me to talk in terms of body mechanics, things I can verify.

As for fear, in my experience while immersed in the experience my feelings are neutral ... with a bit of euphoria mixed. It's only when I let my mind create concepts that I experience doubt before and after, but never during.

Agree too that realistic full contact sparring is a must. Non contact sparring actually inculcates extremely bad habits IMO (creates useless neural pathways relating to experience) and should be avoided like the plague!

Cheers

 

I think that's a really valuable insight. I use that idea all the time - the a "thing" or an event, or a - well, anything - may have a number of different explanations - each time and culture explains things according to the boundaries of its own language, experience, and level of expertise of individuals within that culture.

The common view is generally the least sophisticated, anyway, because as ideas filter through society they get "levelled" to the lowest common denominator of understanding, losing the sophisticated insight that a specialist might have. Interestingly, I often see that occur as a complete reverse - like, the specialist's understanding is often the opposite to the lay man's - classic example, the lay man thinks a black belt is a big deal - but is it a big dealto the real experts?

What I explain this as is the "think shrink" - in some circumstances, like fear - also embarassment - our psychological attention "shrinks" from its normally pretty wide field of awareness of the world, right down to just naked "me"... and fear can be "shrunk" away as well - it's back in the attention that's just been closed off. And so are all the possibilities - all the things we could do, the escapes, the things we should do - possibilities literally appear to disappear simply because we can't think of them. And what we're left with is a kind of psychological paralysis, with no options apparent.

I think sometimes fear is over stated as a factor, compared with that paralyisis. Fear shrinks the attention, but it's the paralysis it gives you that is the thing that stops you finding your fight, even in sparring on class.


One of my big bug-bears is mediocre self defence for women - self defence that would never work, but engenders false confidence. Women, statisitcally, are the people who's violent encounters are the most imbalanced in terms of size and strength of opponent - simply because of the amount who are attacked by stronger men. They can't ever, really train to take full contact hits from an agressive, sexually aroused male - especially when afraid. It's a massive power difference.

Many women, quite reasonably, are forzen - paralysed with fear. And the psychological consequences of aquiescing to an agressor can be as life destroying as the attack itself - it's a terrible, terrible business.

So a massive amount of that is psychological - whether you can access your fight, whether when it comes to the crunch you want to fight, or whether your survival tells you not to fight - terrible business. A woman can fight a man - all knees, elbows, eyes, bites, scratches and screams - no poncy arm locks, lol. But the decision on whether to do that occurs in a profoundly terrifying psychological frame. So the question then of taking hits, and contact training, transfers to mental conditioning - and if that's possible. So that becomes a part of the multi-dimensional answer.

Thanks - I'll steal that explanation!
I always think every training method has its drawbacks as the price we pay for its benefits. Using boxing gloves gives an artificial sense of defence - a guard can be hit straight in to your face - with gloves on even - but without, you can be hit with your own hands. So on and so on, for every thing we do.

Push hands is a killer if people go for form over substance - I'd like to see Chen versus BJJ stand up grappling, lol.

The bad habits thing is a biggie. Look at peopel doing bag work. For one, you miss the bag maybe once in a thousand shots. Come to spar, you hit the opponent once in five to ten shots if they're any good.

On the bag, I see trememndous bad habits, like, people throw the combination then drop their arms, like, the combo is over so they aren't training - little rest time, lol. Or they hit then steady the bag for the nex hit - all developing ridiculous lazy habits. They should be "wired and active" when on the bag, moving back, round after every combo, back in to guard/neutral before dropping arms.

Look at sparring - how often do you see "gentleman's agreements" in the timing? Like, we skirmish, then we "pull back", shaking our arms down - maybe even turn our backs, go back to the start position. Nine times of ten clubs, a "gentleman's agreement" skirmish and re-set timing will have evolved in the sparring. In fact, hit them then - when they think you're "re-setting" to start positions, lol - you're doing them a favour.

Beware the neural pathways of bad habitness!!!

 

Totally - we virtually never use body armour or gloves and always use a hard floor - there's no better way of learning how to roll, but armour is an option when we want people to really let rip without having to hold back.

 

I don't disagree at all JK,
But to some people who may not have a lot of exp. with TCC or "IMAs" try describing how to properly do all the techs of "Grasping sparrows tail." I think you pointing out that doing it with youtube vids etc. will be nice, the problem there is that at times it cannot always get across the exact meaning. But that is why this is a FORUM and others might be able to "bounce around" good ideas and better explanations.

But on the other hand I do so love..."spiral teacake jin" especially on a wintery morning after it is fresh and with a bit of green tea....mmmmmmm

 

Yeah we never do either, even when doing bag work or anything else. Our motto is "You won't have this equipment in a real life situation, why train with it" Though we do have matted floors for break fall training initially we aren't complete barbarians

 

I don't mind body armour - it doesn't really do much at the end of the day, lol. Top fight pros wear ti because they can't afford daft, niggly injuries.

Head guards for boxing /kick boxing or specific ear guards for grappling are very valuable things - at all costs avoid cauliflower ear - it's incurable unless operated on immediately, ugly, and become an extremely painful condition in later life when your ears calcify.

 

Some good contributions there - I just wanted to say in regard to this:

I tend to target the eyes a lot, and the windpipe a fair bit because they make the opponent fearful, especially the eyes. No one can condition their eyeballs against being blinded and they need their eyes open to be able to see you and attack you. Oh - the one situation where targetting the eyes doesn't work so well is when they're wearing ->

 

You'd have to settle for leaving big sticky fingerprints all over them.

I've really enjoyed reading these recent contributions.

 

A good quote from Prince Naseem - apart from "Guilty, your honour," was "you can't put muscles on your chin." Which I always really liked. You see these HUGE muscle guys, but their head is just the same size as anyone's, and their chin just easy to hit, and they just as easy to knock out!

For women's self defence, unless you're Jane Couch kind of level, you've just got to go nuts with the eye scrapes and screams and sharp points - knees and elbows - lots of noise. Look how hard it is to hold an angry cat. When they say "don't scream" - that's when you should scream!

A lot of people get attacked where there's houses, but don't scream for help - like, they goet followed past house after house, and don't scream for help. It's like a social thing - or maybe an ego thing with men. When really, they should be screaming and banging on doors and calling for the police. One thing I know, from personal experience, is you just never quite believe it will happen until it does. Getting across to people that it will is very hard. I often think one of the best things that can happen to a marital artist is a taste of just how mortal and vulnerable we are - just to make you know you really, really must do something to survive.

Just punch glasses, lol - you might get glass in your hand, but that's the least of your worries. Hopefully they'll break and stick in the assailant's face.

Eyes knees - knees to the thighs - worth considering is strength for strength, like, a woman's knee is harder and stronger than a man's thigh on average. A knee to the thigh is really painful. Very good technique for grappling, by the by - bam, right in the thigh.

A punch on the nose doesn't need a great deal of strength in most cases to be eye watering. I remember changing my kids' nappies and getting kicked on the nose a couple of times - very painful, lol.

But it always comes back to the psychological ability to fight under conditions of terror. Myself, I see that as separate from any kind of contact training as such - as in, it's not a matter of brutalizing the body like Shaolin monks do, un-necessarily in my view - it's a psychological state.

Interesting thing to consider is somethign like SAS interrogation training, where they don't necessarily torture you proper - what they're after is pre dis-appointing your expectations of what is going to happen - taking your psychology to that place so that it recognises it, and isn't facing something completely alien when it occurs. That's one of the avenues to thinka bout in preparation training - how proffesionals train for meeting intense, terrifying psychological stress.