Bringing KWON BEOP into the 21st Century

Dear Folks:

This thread proceeds from the MUYE TOBO TONG JI thread and hopefully will focus only on the KWON BEOP Chapter of that book. My personal belief is that the material in this chapter is not "dead" but probably needs some extensive resuscitation if it is to be a productive part of a 21st Century KMA curriculum.

I'm going to start with a few exerpts from the previous thread to get us off-and-running. I apologize in advance as I have jig-sawed things around in order to make the thoughts flow together a bit better.

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Part One Originally Posted by MasterDunchok

Right, and if you don't have access to those methods or the interpretation of the jargon such as "General Hanshin strokes the flag", then of what use is the book? The pictures are not the important part of it, you say, yet it's called "the Comprehensive Illustrated Manual of Martial Arts"! And what choice does anyone have to putter around waiting for spoon-feeding, when no one's around who knows what the stuff means?

People DO KNOW or CAN FIND OUT what these methods are. I'll be the first to say that its a challenge but it can be done. IMHO and IMHE what I have seen is people waiting for some recognized authority to do the grunt-work and put their official seal on the result! I mean no offense----pull-lease!!--- but I am amazed at how many people are sitting on their hands waiting for someone to do the "grunt-work". When its time to bicker about who is "disrespecting" who everyone has an opinion, but when there is a task to be sorted out suddenly everybody goes silent. I know people get upset with me because I take such a critical line with the KMA, but fer Krise-sakes, people.......can everyone be that friggin' lazy!?! These are YOUR arts. You are the present custodians! What da hell are you waiting for? (here rant ends; author absents himself to take morning meds......)

Part Two

Myself personally Mr sims, I don't have the ability with the Korean or Chinese languages and neither the time or the money, although I am happy to encourage your efforts and wish you the best of luck. My free time is spent taking care of my family and training in order to be a better martial artist

What would be the most useful way of making this information available to people so that the chances of them actually playing with it might be upped?

For instance, I could scan information into my computer and----in about two decades--- I might figure-out how to get it on my website. Would people just look at it and muse, or would they start messing with it?

Another (more technical) approach would be to actually identify the "method"---maybe by comparing the various texts, then demo the bit in a clip, then demo a couple of apps. It would be highly involved but could be done. My only concern is that I would feel like I was "spoon-feeding" folks and they still might not do anything with it.

Yet another would be to take some simple Form (IE. POOMSE; HYUNG) that everyone knows and break it down in terms of the Methods that can be identified in it.

Any thoughts on this----I mean as a typical KMA "consumer", as it were?

Part Three

Originally Posted by Bruce W Sims
Absolutely great!! Just remember that the pictures are "icons" and not instructive..... big difference. Its would be like someone taking the occasional snap-shot with a camera while you were doing some form. In this way, "Seven Star Boxing Posture" (sic) (should really be "Seven Star Boxing Method") is a picture of a guy with both fists extended to the front. This picture is not the "be-all-and-end-all" of that method. Think of how many things you can do on the theme of using both hands "on the inside" a'la Western Boxing and you begin to understand the possibilities...

In like manner, for instance, "False Prey Posture" (s/b "False Prey Method) is something each and every K-S person does in the role of the attacker in "one-step sparring"-----that is, initiating an attack with one or both feet and then using the hand(s).

Similarly, "Cloud Hand Method"---one of the 32 not found in the MYTBTJ---is the method of using both hands in a soft, or circular, boxing approach to redirect a flurry of attacks. If one were to take a picture of this method the "posture" would almost look like nothing at all.

Lastly, I have not said anything about transitioning from one method to anything such as flowing from "False Prey" Method to "Grappling Method" or inter-relating, say, "Cloud Hands" with "Seven Star Boxing" to produce a kind of "block-&-counter" combination.

My own best guess is that what is needed is for someone to take each Method and demo two or three ways in which such a body motion might be applied. This is what General QI did originally---- commented on the method and left it to his instructors to teach the apps. FWIW.

BTW: Do you have any interest in some tools that I found helpful?
a.)General Qi's "Boxing Canon" (JI XIAO SHIN SHU; Chapter 14) was translated to English from Ming Chinese and has almost all of the original 32 Methods in it.
b.)The original Boxing Canon can be found in the reprint of General Qi's Book and one can match the Chinese Characters in that work with the HAN-JA in the Korean MYTBTJ. Very illuminating.
c.) There are a number of CHEN TAI CHI CHUAN works which demonstrate the more modern take on these methods as well as a number of Push-hands clips which reveal apps.
d.) Lastly, there is the LONG FIST (the old Northern Form not the modern WU SHU stuff) SHAOLIN material which can be really fun to nose around in and offers many an insight.

great ideas, mr. sims. i will try and find a jxjs online. anywho, we have an instructor who purchased the pricey mydbtj from dr. choi's website. he is a student attemoting to get a master's degree in chinese, so he has actual credibility. good start.

i personally dig the snapshot approach to the illustrations. what i am having difficulty with is three things:
1)shaolin's methods are referenced in gweon beop book all the time. who is to say what were the shaolin methods in the 17th century. certainly not today's shaolin... i even hesitate to reference/purchase the shaolin encyclopedia for fear o competition wushu moves
2)when discussing the patterns and permutations of the methods towards the end of gweon beop chapter, the author states that the flow of ACTUAL combat has been lost by the overemphasis of practising the patterns in the current way. what the fugazzi is the point of practising them, then?
3)there has to be a harder style then chem tai chi


Part 4

also, what is the point with all the people out there ripping stuff off? from an educational perspective, if the movements are simply copied without the teaching, the methods a person works hard to research and preserve loses credibility. from a capitalistic mind, your efforts are putting $$$ in somebody elses hands that is selling your efforts in their name.

case in point: walked into a tkd school like 6 years ago and saw the instructor copying (poorly) our first sword form from a vhs in his studio! wtf? this is probably why my teacher loathes indiscriminate use of video!

The downside of Martial Commerce is that everybody is always worrying about somebody else ripping off the competition. Some fat, lazy guy wants the recognition of knowing something without having to actually go and learn it. Unfortunately thats the way people are. Folks in the MA world have known it for years and thats why they warned about teaching anyone not of good character.

Personally, I toss these dirt-bags in the same bin with the whiners and the bickering and the wannabees. Screw-em. The only thing worse than the fact that they exist at all is the idea that in some way---somehow----their silly crap is going to limit what I do.

I think you are absolutely right. There will be a ton of crap from folks about this and that, but it won't stop them from taking the material and representing that is what they have been doing all along.

Yeah...sure. Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

There are people in every profession and walk of life who lie cheat and steal, I think you have to move beyond a consideration of this and ask yourself why am I doing this, is it to make a profit, to be recognized, or to improve the quality of my art and or help others improve their art and practice. And I think you just have to ignore the naysayers and make the best attempt at keeping away from those of low ethics

 

FWIW, the original thread is NOT locked, even though Moosey promised to do so. I asked a question over there, Bruce, and you can answer there or here, whichever you choose.

 

Thanks....I did it over there.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Oh...absolutely. Why do you think most people don't tackle this? There are only about 200 different things one could get hung-up on. Looking back over the last few years some of these have been language and linguistics (including Romanization), biomechanics, politics, legalisms (which I differentiate from "legalities"--- trust me, everybody is a lawyer, right?), turf and organizations, styles, arts and respect for teachers. Thats why I said that if a guy waited until everything was just so, a project like this would never happen.

Taking it a step further, there are actually things that people don't want to do, for no reason other than they just don't want to see them done. A standardized Hapkido curriculum falls into this category. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I agree, the standardization thing seemed to upset some in ksw, but I had already been exposed to a standardized system with the Tracy system of kempo so I actually like the fact that you can go into any school in a style and every learns the same.

 

Ya know, the odd thing is, that once a person begins to identify these various KWON BEOP methods in what they are doing it really, really underscores the fact that we are all doing the same thing, and maybe this is what some folks want to deny. My own take is that what makes, say, KMA, distinct from, say, JMA or CMA is not the actual material itself but the manner in which a given culture may approach that material. Unfortunately, I think this may fly in the face of the agenda that some people may have to represent what they do as really "special", and honestly I've really had enough of that nonsense. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Well, there are many similarities between hapkido and ksw, yet there are differences also, i remember the beginners form with .Mr forby was very similar to the yellow belt form I'm ks, and while kibonsoo was very similar also, the striking method was radically different than ksw

 

well, in lieu of a copy to start scanning from method one, i will contribute what little i have discovered on the topic of gweon beop:
http://www.videosurf.com/video/fist-principles-quan-fa-ji-xiao-xin-shu-1242865248

 

and a link to the source material of the muyedobotongji, the ji xiao xin shu (as photocopied at the university of michigan). i clicked through, but there is a lot of hanja... alot of hanja, and what appears to be formations. i can only make out the characters for placements (above, below, middle):
http://hdl.handle.net/2027/mdp.39015045705939

 

Speaking of which, Bruce, I once offered to lend you a hand with doing some research and other various things, but you have yet to do as I requested (i.e. communicate directly via email instead of going through the PM center here on MAP). I'm still waiting for you to email me.

 

Nothing personal; chalk it up to technical difficulties. The materials I wanted to send to you are going onto a CD, but the result does not play on a standard DVD player, and I can't seem to find the hitch in the giddy-up.

I have one copy of material on a HI-8 cassette and another copy of the same material on a video tape. If I can't find a way to productively convert one of these two onto a disk I may have to just send you the copy I have on VHS. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

It's my understanding Bruce you can get a cord that goes from your vhs to your computer then you play it at regular speed through your computer and record it as you.go, I hope that is helpful

 

Bruce

Elliots correct

you need something like these
http://www.roxio.com/enu/products/creator/device/
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4276658&CatId=1428

any big PC store should be able to help, or get one online


And when you burn the disk, do it to DVD format and make sure you finalise ("close") the disk

 

Thanks for the help, S. Unfortunately they only scanned the first Eight Chapters of the General's book and the chapter we need to look at is Chapter 14.

I'm thinking that it may be worthwhile to scan my copy of the Boxing Canon and put on my Website. At least people would have access to the material, yes?

BTW: Thanks for the "tech support". I'll play with it this weekend and let you folks know if I come up with a solution.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Slightly, off-topic :topic:​

Hehe, I own one of these, so I can do all that nifty bumping to digital as well as watch TV on my computer (hooray for Elgato's EyeTV):

​

And here's the link in case anyone's interested: EyeTV-Hybrid

 

Be careful now, you can't just google '拳法' (ie. gwonbeop) and think that everything that comes up has direct link to the gwonbeop material of the MYDBTJ.
Gwonbeop is a way to generic term for that.
Imagine a chapter in a modern martial arts book called 'empty handed fighting', that doesn't tell you much about the style that the chapter will describe. It could be Western boxing, MMA, hapkido, karate, aikido, etc. etc.
So before we all rush to google and copy-paste 拳法 in the search bar, we first need more information. What does the MYDBTJ say in the gwonbeop chapter and which other material is referenced.

The gwonbeop material was put together using Shaolin style kungfu and material called Jang Song Gyeo (장송계 / 張松溪).

So the question is: what do we know about the Shaolin Temple styles of that time (not the reenactments we see today) and Jang Song Gye (Chinese: Zhang Songxi???) ?

 

Folks........... I have some good news......and some bad news.....

The bad news is that I was scanning the copy of the Boxing Canon (see: QI Ji-guang; Chapter 14) and have found that I am missing two pages. I'm not sure how that happened but if you had ever seen my office you would not be wondering for long. In fact you'd probably wonder how I found ANYTHING in this s***-hole. I guess thats one more reason to get these materials out where people can see them, and not in piles on various chairs, cabinets and shelving, yes?

Now for the Good News...... I went ahead and published what I had anyhow . I would rather get the material out there so people can see it, than keep waiting for everything to be "just so". I promise that as soon as I can find a reasonable replacement for the two pages, I'll put it out there.

To view the KWON BEOP materials I have modified the website.
(see: http://www.midwesthapkido.com/

There is now a button on the Home Page identified as KWON BEOP. I'm not sure what I am going to do about materials I am posting for other projects. Guess I'll cross that bridge after I ford this river......as it were. Please don't be put off by the "under construction"---it just means that I have not added commentary to explain things to folks who might visit the website and NOT know what the heck this is all about.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

That's pretty cool Bruce, I guess now I have to .find someone to teach me Chinese, lol. It is pretty cool though that you have the initiative and the drive for something like this. Myself I love to learn things gonna have to find someone near me who teaches Chinese or Korean

 

Actually the people of the Muye24ki have put the whole Korean translation of the MYDBTJ online
Here is the gwonbeop chapter: http://muye24ki.com/muye24ki/muye24ki.php?cat=2&sub=22