Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Simon, Sep 9, 2021.

  1. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    The problem with the gymnastic approach is that for ascetic reasons you roll down the bone of your spine and bang the two knobbly bits at the top of you hip
    So yes we roll from one buttock, along the muscles beside the spine and over to the opposite shoulder blade, crossing around the scapula & visa versa for backwards
    I don't raise the shoulder when rolling backwards, interesting, I'll try it and see if there's some benefit vs just tucking your chin & tilting the head
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  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Good point about the hip!


    Give it a go with the shoulder and see what you think, I'd be interested in your thoughts! It does feel awkward at first, but it really helps to guard the neck. Especially when rolling backwards whilst someone is trying to stack pass you.
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  3. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Will do and I can see how it would help in the stacking scenario
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  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Perhaps we need to ask dancers/controtionists too!
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  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yep, pretty much. If I have the space I concentrate on getting my rear foot to the ground ahead of my opposite shoulder to get to standing in one movement. I think of it as a kick, actually.
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  6. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I respectfully disagree. In my opinion the approach shown in both Dunc's video and the karate video is functionally very different from the one I describe in my post and demonstrated by the par cour video.

    If you look at the par cour video you will see that when setting up for the roll the contact points with the ground make a diamond. As I describe in my post. If you look at the roll itself you will see that the arm is extended to make contact with the ground well before the shoulder. Using the arm in this way provides contact with the ground earlier which allows a number of practical advantages. Proprioception aids the faller in knowing where they are in relation to the ground. Rolling over the arm extends the time taken to fall giving more time to cope with what is going on. Rolling over the arm gives a measure of control in the fall. These effects combine to make it easier to continue the roll across the shoulder. It is more controlled and safer. In my opinion ignoring the hand and using the shoulder as the first point of contact with the ground significantly increases the risk of server injury.
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
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  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, I agree that some kind of "feeling" structure that collapses on contact is a good idea, if you have the limbs free to do it.

    The parkour video is very similar to how I do it. The leading arm acts as a guide for the rear foot, so you have some idea where you are going to end up. It makes it easier to aim the roll.

    The BJJ/Judo backwards roll that Dead_pool posted is very different to my approach, being so linear. I find it necessary to redirect some force rotationally on hard/bumpy surfaces.
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  8. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Do you mean different in principle to this (still taken from my vid)?
    Screenshot 2021-09-22 at 15.15.55.png
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  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Having a collapsable post when using a breakfall for movement can be a good idea, but not for throwing practice, you often don't have an arm free to do it, and there's the risk of posting your arm and at the very least blowing out your collar bone.

    Rolling for jumping rolls/parkour/falls, is a little bit different to ukemi rolls for taking repeated hard throws, which again is a little bit different to training counters (cartwheeling or flipping out of throws). They all look pretty similar though and there's a lot of cross over so they often get mixed up.
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  10. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I dunno how much I can add here, but:

    Slapping the mat is, IMO, only really beneficial if you aren't doing a full roll. I.e., where you are ending the movement still prone on the ground. (I do acknowledge training to do something other than posting with your arm also has benefits.)
    If you are going straight over backwards (e.g., facing someone and they shove you hard enough to knock you over backwards), I was taught to tuck the chin a bit (to protect the back of the head from hitting the ground) and slap with both hands on the ground right as the main weight of your body is impacting the ground--this spreads out the impact force so it isn't just on your butt & torso, putting some of it into your arms instead--this helps prevent injury. On hard surfaces this can of course sting or with a hard enough impact maybe numb your hands/arms for a bit, you may get cuts/etc, but I think I'd tend to prefer that trade-off to reduce the chances of damaging my core/back.

    I was taught forward rolls both with & without arm-first ground contact. I've done a lot of forward rolls both on grassy areas, hard floors with thin carpets, and mats.
    - IF your form is good, it is better to make initial contact with the back of the shoulder; the contact should be relatively smooth if you are rolling correctly. If your form isn't good, this is the harder roll to do though--if you mess up you can jam your shoulder into the mat. But if your form is good, it allows you to roll even if you have both hands full.
    - The forward roll where you make contact with your hand or arm first as you roll is fine, but in my experience even when done correctly tends to be harder on the body than the (correctly performed) no-hand/arm contact forward roll; maybe its just me, but the angle/body mechanics end up such that the contact is less smooth and I end up taking a bit more force on my shoulder/back than I would with the no-hand/arm contact roll. You can still do this with stuff in your hands, but it becomes a lot trickier; you can't make hand contact with the ground, just arm contact, and in my experience I end up taking more force than I'd like into the arm/shoulder.

    Especially when rolling on harder surfaces, I find the no hand/arm contact roll minimizes the force going into any particular part of my body better than the alternative. (Maybe I just need to practice the hand/arm contact roll more?)

    EDIT TO ADD: I am also very big; I have a lot of mass. I don't know how well my experience would translate to someone with a normal or small frame.
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  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I do think it's funny that people in judo and wrestling learn breakfalls but then in competition they still sometimes reach out, post and "not" breakfall.
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  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    In judo it's because breakfalling means ippon against you, whereas they don't breakfall at all in wrestling, better mats and again the point system plays against you.
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  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, I don't use the collapsible post in a fighting context, except sometimes rolling off the forearm when going backwards, but that is as much a bad habit as a deliberate technique.

    Holding onto the person, and getting the edge of the sole of the shoe to hit the ground first (not the flat of the foot as dunc shows, which I've found can send more shock up the leg) are my go-to's.

    The parkour type method is just for having fun trying to roll without breaking your stride while running. I've not tried it jumping from a height though.
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  14. Zambuka

    Zambuka New Member

    Being able to breakfall and/or roll is really important as you get older, the time to learn it well is when you're still young. It's also great to know
    if you live in an area that has a lot of ice in the winter.
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  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Agreed, but when you get old enough that your mobility is seriously compromised, weight transference is the most important skill. Old people fall over because their feet can't catch up with their shifting centre of balance. That's why Tai Chi is sometimes taught in geriatric fall classes, because there is a lot of weight transference between the feet. Hopping is also a skill to keep up, so you can shift one foot under your centre of balance if you trip.

    When you reach a ripe old age, skin and bone don't deal well with meeting the ground, even if you can breafall. Best not to get there in the first place!
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  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Yes. the functional difference is that you tuck the lead hand under your body. when your lead hand touches the floor it is very close to, or even behind, your centre of gravity. the further you tuck the hand under your body the less you hand and arm can be used for load bearing during the fall. This greatly reduces the degree of control in the fall. In the par cour roll, and the roll I describe, the lead hand is extended well in front of the body making contact well in advance of the centre of gravity.

    The difference in hand position is most clear in your demonstration of rolling while holding a weapon. tucking the hand to the hip gets it out the way and allows you to retain the weapon but the this means that the functional load bearing part of the roll begins much higher up the arm toward the shoulder. The tighter the roll, the less time in the roll the less of the arm you have to roll along the more exact the roll must be. if you have the skills its fine , but there is less margin for error and if you mess up there is far less room for recovery.

    In your diving roll you do contact the ground with both your hands in front of you, but! you do not maintain the direction of roll. in stead you change the angle. To me this is less of a diving forward break fall and more of a diving handstand cutaway break fall.
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
  17. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    yeah there are different methods for different situations etc. Sometimes you want to flip a little to complete the roll quickly, sometimes absorb the force etc
    Generally as you fall from a height in a forwards direction you need to use your arms to absorb the force
    This is done in a soft way not slapping
    As you roll over it’s important to do the “ground contacts from should to opposite hip” (as per earlier posts) to avoid the impact on your spine &/or knobbly bits either side of the spine at the top of the hip bone

    The principle of softly absorbing impact with your arms is the same when breakfalling without rolling
  18. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Most of the time, you don't have the luxury to roll if your opponent still controls one of your arms when he throw you. You should use your other arm to protect your head at that moment.

  19. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Yes I agree & another reason why slapping is suboptimal in my view
    Nice example!
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I like that!

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