Brazilian Juijitsu?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Kraen, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Like Blast don't know much about real aikido.In a real fight 90% of aikido is atemi STRIKING.

    If someone attempted to push or pull me I would simply thump him one.

    Ronin master not every guy in TMA hates MMA since it is made up mainly of TMA techniques.Nor did blast even imply that he dislikes MMA.

    For what it's worth if an experienced fighter no matter what style comes under an unexpected attack..the techniques used are basic and pragmatic to nearly every art I have seen and it is damn difficult to say what art was used. This is NOT based on training in the cage or the dojo but working for twenty odd years in deprived areas of Glasgow.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  2. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Pauli's spot on. The real monsters in any realm have always been the guys who can live in the worst situations. If going to the ground is the worst place to be, then those who become truly dangerous there will be like sharks. Noone else will be able to go into that realm and compete with them.
    In fact, this is exactly what happened when striking met grappling at the beginning of the MMA boom.

    If you want to talk about weapons, consider the fact that a great deal of MMA practicioners are or were involved in the military, or apply the same training methods to weapons training. (combat sambo or dog brothers, for example)

    Also, people, stop crowing about "no rules". Brazilian Vale Tudo allows biting, groin strikes, eye gouges, hair pulling, strikes to the back of the head, all that. You know how the fights play out? More or less exactly like those in the cage. For examples, look up Rio Heroes.

    Finally, if you want to talk about multiple opponents, what do you think is going to allow you to fight with them or escape? Has noone considered the skills developed in controlling the space within the cage?

    The only glaring problem is awareness, and this isn't truly developed by MMA or TMA methods. It's developed by everyday life and personal mindset.
  3. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    OK. Last time I ask this question:

    What is closer to debilitating force? Getting into an MMA ring with an experienced fighter whose sole goal is to punch, kick, lock, and choke you into submission, or practicing compliant partner drills using techniques that are "too dangerous" to actually use in a realistic way?

    Look, I'm the first to admit that some techniques are left out of MMA training due to the rule set of a sporting environment. But, that sporting environment allows the techniques that ARE included to be used in as realistic a fashion as possible. That kind of real-world experience and applicability is worth the trade-off.

    I'm sorry, were my claims veiled? I didn't mean for them to be. I'm not afraid to quite blatantly state that some training methods are better than others. There is such a thing as the best way to do something. Until someone proves that "traditional" style training produces superior fighters, MMA is the place for me to be. I'm not interested in an environment that never offers me a chance to see that the skills I'm investing time and money into actually work.

    If you're not interested in the discussion, why not just ignore it, instead of periodically coming back and whining that it hasn't gone in the direction you want? I'm happy to engage you in a technical discussion, but any time someone disagrees with you, you clam up and say the thread isn't to your taste. Kinda makes it hard to have any meaningful discussion.
  4. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    Oh, and one other thing:

    Tell me then, under what kind of fighting ruleset would a fighter of your training methodology do better than an MMAist? Ask yourself, would those rules be more or less realistic?
  5. Blast

    Blast Valued Member

    Did you actually read my post? Didn't I post somewhere that MMA is awesome? I never showed any kind of disrespect towards MMA.

    What I'm sick off is that every MMA guy bashes TMA because there are people that train serious in it. You seem to act like MMA is superior towards any other not MMA-oriented (or is it MMA-orientated?) martial art.

    True, I'm at a disadvantage when faced multiple opponents, but at least I had some training for how to deal with it.

    About the rules: I'm going to stop argueing about them since people tend to think the fights would be the same without the rules, which I don't understand.

    Some people just don't want to understand that not everything can be done in the cage. outside the cage, fights happen unexpected, not something to prepare for. Those fights do not have the same mindset as you would have in a sport environment.

    Just stop saying TMA is inferior, okay? Then we can all be friends and stop argueing online about why BJJ is brought up (the creator of this thread should've known this would end up in an all-out wars between MMA and everything else lol).
  6. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hey Blast

    Better to be thought inferior than to be feared. Then when all hell breaks loose..SURPRISE.they see no postures no warning only a 100% all out attack.

    There are no strikes in aikido. There is no first attack???


    To anyone who thinks one single art is superior.

    Who gives a damn which "art" is the best. The more difficult question is not CAN you fight but WILL you fight.

    Get back to me when you have had to fight (often) when you did not wish to and can say from experience what worked for you.That goes for TMA MMA or whatever is out there.

    rant over.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    1) People dont wear T shirts with their arts name on it in real life, so your not likily to be feared or thought inferior by anyone in day to day life, and personally I'd rather be the grey man in my day to day life.

    2) We're talking about 'training programmes' and there are better and worse ways to train anything, what makes martial arts difficult is that there so subjective, one way to reduce this issue would be to make some sort of competition, maybe allowing whatever Mix of Martial Arts you would like to be used, although as always the context would be slightly removed from everyday violence.

    3) The real question is can you teach someone who cant fight, how to, in a measurable and progressive safe way, if you cant then theres not much to sell your training programme to the people who really need it.

    Completly calm, rational, non emotional, & full of zanshiny goodness, post over
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Not into training programmes at all if it is self defence. Best to crosstrain to get an insight into as many arts as possible. Choose the one that works for you and still crosstrain.

    As for wearing the T shirt I would rather let the guy think I was a take on (since you come from Glasgow you will know that saying)

    There are too many "teachers" out there who have never been in a real fight in their lives.And a lot say they are teaching the baddass real thing.
  9. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    I think these two points really bear repeating. At the centre of this debate should be a discussion of training methodologies, not that of individual arts. That's the big misunderstanding we're having here. Some of us are saying that generally speaking, the pedagogical methods used in the average MMA and BJJ school are better than those used in the average TMA school. Yes, there are MMA schools that are terrible and don't teach skills properly (especially now that the UFC has become popular) and there are TMA schools that spar regularly and pressure test in a fantastically real way. But we aren't talking about those. We're talking specifically about the advantages of one style of training over another.

    16 pages ago, the OP asked why the topic of BJJ often comes up, and that's the answer that has been given; the rise of BJJ in the martial arts world has shed a lot of light on what it means to be an effective martial artist, regardless of the range you train in. BJJ was so successful early on not only because people were unprepared for ground fighting, but because they had not trained in an effective way. BJJ doesn't have a monopoly on effective training methods, either. Examples given so far in this thread (like Chuck Liddell) show other ways of being an effective fighter who does not necessarily specialize in BJJ or ground fighting. The reason Liddell is effective is not because he's trained in BJJ, but because he has used similar training methods; the issue here isn't what art you practice, but how you practice it.
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    My answer to that is CROSSTRAIN. Nothing opens your eyes and mind like getting out of your own environment.

    My last dojo was in the Marine Commando Barracks where we shared the gym with Vadim a russian guy teaching MMA and sambo . We got on famously and my guys crosstrained with them and muhy thai and circuit training plus bagwork.

    Incedently JMA constantly encouraged cross training usually in judo for the competition and ground work.

    It is only today that so many people insist in putting their art in a box or on a pedestal missing out on the chance to learn from each other.
  11. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned


    It's worth mentioning again though, that although Chuck favours stiking he wouldn't be half as successfull at it in that arena if he wasn't also an accomplished grappler (division one wrestler/bjj purple belt). Just wanted to illustrate that he is not a pure striker, although he clearly favours that approach.
  12. Dudelove

    Dudelove Valued Member

    Yep, the answer comes down to aliveness...

    (aliveness is just a word given to the essential elements within functional martial arts training)

  13. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I don't think anyone would argue against the validity of crosstraining. It's not really about limiting yourself to one art/style its about choosing the best possible approach to training.

    Judo is awesome. Not just for the competition and groundwork but for the methodology of its practice.
  14. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I always play this video when people express an interest in training martial arts... sadly posting anything by Matt Thornton on here is a sure fire way to get yourself labeled as a nut hugging mma zealot.
  15. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    It's a label I wear proudly :p
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    By people who live in boxes and refuse/are afraid to crosstrain.

    Or those who think that wisdom must come only from the East.

    great video.
  17. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Ha! I guess I must be in denial :)
  18. Omicron

    Omicron is around.

    I agree 100% that crosstraining is an invaluable part of martial arts practice. I just want to say again though, that how you practice is more important than what you practice. Crosstraining at a McDojo or other such school wouldn't help much at all, regardless of how different their style is from yours.
  19. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Too true guys from the makotokai have been "encouraged not to return" after a few high grades in aikido have had to face powerfull and accurate attacks.

    All sorts of nonsense is out there about broken arms are common place in our dojo. truth being we train hard and against resistance. If the guys want competititon I have friends who are shihan in other arts and they are made most welcome.

    Bottom line for me is I have seen guys from both sides (and the sides should not exist) who would not cause me to raise an eyebrow let alone a sweat and have friends who are lifelong practisioners.

    The good news is that those at the top of their game could not care less about all the bickering.

    Strong enough that they need not fear attack and mature enough that others need not fear them.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2010
  20. Blast

    Blast Valued Member

    Seems like we all agree now :hat:. So the conclusion is cross-training, not in mcdojo's.

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