Yes of course we do, as well as strike the forging post, metal ball bags, sand bags, etc. It is an essential part of TKD, forging!
The only way you can really condition your bones is through load bearing exercise. Things like backpacking with a heavy load works, and doing things in the weight room like squats help as well. Nothing in any MA "conditions" your bones. It'll make your muscles and tendons stronger, the bones might get a little thicker, but the soreness or hurt you get from kicking (the air or objects) has to do with nerve endings and soft tissue, not so much your bones.
If you look at the structure of, for example a hand, there are many parts to forging a tool. Whilst I agree that the pain experienced is from nerve ending etc repeated striking of a hard target creates minute breaks in the bone (normally around the pockets) which then heals denser than before. This creates stronger bones that can withstand more impact than before. Obviously forging also strengthens the skin and muscles created harder patches of skin. Also it forges the mind to get used to the pain and therefore react less and less to it when the pain is experienced.
Wrong. At most it creates calcium deposits on the point of impact. These can create problems later on with age. Your bone does not work like muscle does, which is what your explanation says. When you exert force with a muscle in the form of resistance training (resistance training being in the context of "more than what the body is used to") small tears happen in the muscle which rebuild. Over time/effort and increased intensity those muscles will grow stronger. Bone does not work like this. Bone reacts to constant stress over a significant duration of time. A powerlifter who's squatting 600lbs will have a thicker femoral shaft on the femur (thigh bone) than a couch potato, same thing with somebody who backpacks cross country for exercise. This generally applies to all bones. If you break, crack, or chip your bone you will probably know it and it will probably cause quite a bit of pain. What you do with training is get used to the impact force as well as learn how to tense your muscles in a way to provide the best structure to brace for impact. The skin around the area also reacts to force and creates tougher skin, callouses are a good example. The 'pain' is relative, it hurts at the beginning and your nerves still send the same pain registering signals, your brain just stops reacting to it the same way over time (you "get used to it"). I'm a little rusty about this subject so if somebody more knowledgable has something to correct please do. That said, going to train in the evening should not have a goal of "make my bone hurt." Do what you can deal with without having sever pain the next day, bone crack'a'lacking should not make it into your workout log.
I am basing my Bone conditioning comments on the basic of Wolff's Law but actually both of our comments are correct and perform the same function in the bone. One by load and compression the other by impact.
Quote: "Whilst I agree that the pain experienced is from nerve ending etc repeated striking of a hard target creates minute breaks in the bone (normally around the pockets) which then heals denser than before. This creates stronger bones that can withstand more impact than before." Not only is that not how bones strengthen, but you're recommending striking a hard target which could cause mobility/functioning problems by doing along with unnecessary pain. I can't get behind that because it's just not true at all. While your comments suggest a "just keep at it" undertone, the advice in which to do/approach is potentially harmful and archaic. Sure, we came to the same "just keep at it" conclusion, but the ends to your means are harmful. That needs to be made clear, especially if somebody is trying to learn how to condition themselves.
You're confusing Wolfe's Law with Cortical Remodelling though. Wolfe's Law - a skeleton essentially gains a small amount of extra mass because it has to cope with a higher than normal level of stress being placed upon it. Such as a tennis player with a marginal increase in their serving arm, a weight lifters' leg (though arguably most the skeleton) and so forth. Cortical remodelling - repetitive practice of striking the bones in the body in such a way that you cause microscopic fractures along the length of the affected area, stimulating additional calcium production time and again so that the outer layer of the bone grows progressively stronger. Wolfe's Law is fine to argue with, but cortical remodeling is a highly debated theory in sports science and the MA community as a whole and is generally not recommended by a lot of people.
The idea is that essentially you strike something over and over again, causing miniscule micro-fractures along the length of the affected bone. The natural response from the body is to create more calcium to repair the damage, growing an extra layer of calcium over the affected area. Repetitive practice = numerous new layers of calcium = thicker outer layer of bone without crippling the structural integrity of the bone as a whole. At least that is the general idea. The general concern however is that in doing so you are damaging the bones over and over to do it - often without sufficient healing time and usually with careless practice. There's also arguments about developing arthritis in later years and bone cancer and what-not, but I don't understand enough about that to give it much merit personally. Half the battle is nerve pain though and the brains' response to nerve pain can be dulled/desensitised/tuned out (depending on how you want to argue it). While many MAists supposedly can develop greater bone density in the striking parts of the body, again I have not seen the papers so support this. But by that logic, good consistent pad and bag work should do the trick anyway. Nope, most dojos/dojangs/kwoons/any other variation won't touch stuff like this with a barge pole.
I've been up for a very long time and when I replied I was confusing "Wolfe's Law" with "Occam's Razor." Not related in any way at all; I have no idea why my mind made that association, and I just give up. Anywho, Cortical Remodeling sounds like an absolutely horrible idea.
Same concept as Cortical Remodeling. Just start off with lightly thumping, work your way up to punching, then somebody else kicking. eek: and )
*snicker* happens to the best of us dude Seriously though, I've almost done some ghastly things with my posts. Thankfully I normally catch myself just before I post and delete the whole thing and try again/walk away, but sometimes I still slip up. Confusing Martin Luther and Martin Luther King Jr is still my favourite I'm not so fussed by it, truth be told. Done in moderation with care, it's not that bad. My bug bear is that to me, most people who support it also tend to be the kind of morons who think punching brick walls hard over and over is a great idea. :bang:
You could try weight lifting with your crotch: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYTm7ngmI0k"]Iron Crotch 2013 - YouTube[/ame] Or like this [EDIT: Better vid]: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB7gnB31NnI"]Sports Science: "World Record Kick to the Groin" Part 1 - YouTube[/ame] *Spoiler* the dude comes away absolutely fine with no signs of damage. ...Both of them give me nightmares...
Started with steel shot in a canvass bag. (Mag sure you get one with steel or fill it with steel and not lead that can migrate thru the cloth. Did that for about 5 years and then just switched to a cinder block. After about 5 more years switched to a steel plate. Still using that. Also using A dit dat Jow recipe published years ago in a magazine. Get ingrediants from a local Chines apothocary. I have no forensic evidence as to the efficacy of the Jow,, but it's a small cost and many seem to believe in it. Read an article once about some Jow being analyzed and it's components were similar to DMSO and other synthetic items used for healing, but they were natural.
Quote: Originally Posted by TKDstudent Yes of course we do, as well as strike the forging post, metal ball bags, sand bags, etc. It is an essential part of TKD, forging! I think others have addressed the 1st question better than I could. It does seem that the constant striking builds calcium deposits & toughens or hardens the skin around the striking surfaces of the tools. It is like the laborer who works hard with their hands & over time,mother develop callouses with makes the surface of the skin feel harder. From what I understand the practice of forging or conditioning your offensive & yes defensive tools, comes from a time long ago where fighters, warriors, would toughen their body to become stronger actual tools or weapons. While I am not sure exactly where & when it was inserted into a martial art syllabus, I can tell you were it came from in the case of TKD! Since TKD was created by Korean men who studied Karate in Japan or from books, with some added Chinese MA influence, that is where it comes from, plain & simple. In the early days the Koreans called what they did karate, albeit using Korean terms or phrases in Korean connecting it to China. Examples of this are Kong Soo or Tang Soo (Tang for the Tang Dynasty of China & Soo for hand, as in China Hand). When Gen. Choi conceived of the TKD label as the new name for KMAs, they were still early on doing Karate in Korea. As the original system of TKD developed in the Korean Army, it used much of karate basics to form the basis for their syllabus. Naturally over time they added things to it, changed the way they executed various aspects & eventually they had their own KMA with a somewhat unique identity. (Somewhat unique & the level thereof is left to the individual observer to determine for themselves)! Now the civilian side of the developmental process in Korea centered around a new & unique set of sport sparring rules that were devised mostly or first by the Ji Do Kwan. The rule set was created specifically to be distinguished from the karate roots. That had a certain level of consequences. Among them was the quick stepping, fast counter-kicking skills that developed over the passage of time, as innovation was required to be a successful player in a new developing sort. Another consequence was the moving away from the hardening of the tools, as the new sport required a different type of conditioning or preparation to be successful. Now when many of the older Koreans moved abroad to make a living teaching KMAs, they did so exporting with them, a martial art, as that was what the West was craving during the MA craze of the 1960-70s, as it was the fade of the decade, thanks in large part to the influx of some many Hollywood & Chinese MA films & shows! This trend started to change in the 1980s with the series of Karate Kid movies, which started the "kiddie invasion" with every Mum looking to register their little "junior" so they could be the next karate kid! This in turn led the Koreans (& others) to realize more money (£ € $ ¥) could be made focusing on children, so out went the forging & in came the babysitting & teaching junior to shout YES SIR! & THANK YOU MA' AM! This coincided with the WTF getting TKD listed as an Olympic sport (1980) & its debut as a demonstration sport in 1988 & 92, before Official Sport status from 2000 forward. South Korea's push of TKD as a sport has had a wide ranging effect, not all of it viewed as positive by everyone. So to answer your 2nd question, no most DoJangs would not engage in the "old school" forging & conditioning, which in ITF TKD is an essential physical component (1 of 5) of TKD training. To further indicate the softening of TKD, what better image than the padded floors! How many still train on a wooden floor? (that one could actually punch)!
Sometimes training harder is not training smarter. I often joke that the reason the old masters shuffled around in old Chinese Kung Fu movies was because their bodies were destroyed by hard training. I have trained on concrete, wooden suspended type basketball floors, puzzle mat floors, and even gymnastic floor exercise sprung floors. The more padded / springy the floor the more older joints appreciate it. The more padded the floor, the more the head appreciates it if you get knocked down. Getting knocked down or falling on a hard floor iis referred to as "Whole body forging" results of which are questionable.
I find that sand bags are great for conditioning your hands,heres a short clip of me conditioning the outside three knuckles with some strikes http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UiS9tN3pXBA#t=84
I'm sure someone more eloquent than me will probably mention if striking with the third knuckle is a good idea or not (given the risk of fracturing the bones in the hand - the thread "Boxers' bone had some good x-rays of it). But personally if I'm going to do any conditioning strikes, I tend to prefer striking at shoulder/chest height so I can get a better angle/line of attack. But that's just me
