Black Belt Children

Do they have to re-test at 16/18? That's what I think needs to happen to justify junior dan grades.

 

We go back to the same two problems again:

1. You are judging what should be a blackbelt based on your criteria - which is not the topic of this thread. There are many many arts out there that you can receive a blackbelt in as an adult without such rigorous training, Bujinkan and TKD (certain schools I have seen for both) are just two from the top of my head. There is no way that the effort put in equates to something so monumental in these two arts in certain situations.

In essence the 'bar' or standard for blackbelt isn't consistent, and you are projecting what YOU think it should be, which isn't fair. I tried to highlight this in my 'my arts better than yours' post.

2. Kids train hard as hell. That boxer was just one I pulled up, but I have trained with a number of kids in BJJ that started in the kiddies class at 6-9 yrs and have been battling to get out there and fight the big boys. I train now with them and they do not have the same belts as the adults and it is a joke that they don't, in an art that is based on skill and ability to execute they cover all the bases, against grown men.

Look at this one - its even worse!!! She's a chick and only 12:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsfA_CG78Pk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsfA_CG78Pk[/ame]

I simply cannot believe that people think they train harder than I have seen some kids train.

Here's a 16yr old against a man:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPPHxGtxztA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPPHxGtxztA[/ame]

Now, the latter (BJJ) they also state that kiddies shouldn't hold a BB - here's the thing though, going back to what I said before skill level wise a Blue/purple level in BJJ is equal to or greater than a BB in other arts, and if a kid can beat a man even if the kid has to be ranked with baby ranks that implies based purely on ability, that his kiddie rank is equal to a grown mans 'real rank'

There are other videos of kids in BJJ beating BB in other arts. So its not a 'they can't handle it, the training is too much' argument at all.

 

What they do is test for 2nd degree with the same requirements after the age of 16. Most don't do it but a couple have.

 

I don't mean to derail the discussion but I thought you were a Ninpo instructor?

 

I hold a high grade in Niinpo and a low grade in BJJ.

Interestingly my skill level, from a fighting perspective is probably not correlated directly to either rank if considered in isolation.

 

It kinda is. The topic of the thread was:

My opinion on what a BB should represent thus becomes entirely relevant as well as my opinion on whether or not kids as defined by the OP should be given a BB in the first place, as is your opinion on whether or not anyone should care. Afterall, how can we form any kind of response if we don't make some defining judgements to begin with? :dunno:

That is probably a bit ruder than it was meant to be and I apologise if it comes across as so. But every teacher I've had over my time (spent almost exclusively with TMA's) have expressed their views about how the kyu grades are like the wick of a candle burning down - the lower the kyu grade, the lower the flame gets down the wick. Eventually, the flame is extinguished and from there you're left on your own two feet to start thinking about it for yourself, but you should have a good enough grounding in the fundamentals - what they are, their fundamental applications, the ability to actually perform them - to be able to find your own two feet from there. Within that view, it's hard to accept a child as defined by the OP having both the quality of training, the life experience and the understanding to be regarded as a BB. Which, again, isn't about fighting technique specifically. And by further consideration, I haven't seen any kid with the mental or emotional maturity to represent that ideal.

I think there may be some confusion between us. In my eyes, rigorous and honest aren't always the same. Hell I've seen karate schools where the students turn up to train every session for a couple of hours slugging away so hard they come away feeling sick at times, some would burst into tears and so forth. But at the end of the day, they were kinda fast and fairly strong but generally had poor technique because they hadn't taken the time to break down what the technique was and had little understanding of the purposes of the forms/technique applications/targeting/little ability to apply the techniques in a pressure testing situation. I wouldn't consider their training to be "honest" in the same way I wouldn't consider a school that does the reverse style maybe 1 - 2 times a week for an hour or so.

For me, honest training is the kind of training that, regardless of physical state, mentally engages you to push yourself, expand your understanding of what you're doing and to work at it. It just so happens that high intensity, rigorous training is usually a great for making people feel like they're engaged.

Can train hard as hell, doesn't mean they automatically will. Plus most kids only tend to want to put the effort in as long as it's fun (well, more so than most adults anyway). Which means usually if the training gets tough, the kids clear off.

They're also very good at mimicking what they have seen, but not so great at understanding applications.

Don't get me wrong, as a 16 stone 25 year old dude (last year) I got tapped out by a 16 year old 4 stone lighter than me when he grappled with me and I made a stupid mistake. Kids can be awesome fighters, sure. But again, based off my experiences, I can't judge a BB on just being a good fighter.

Yeah, fair play she was pretty awesome.

Again, some. That's not really representative of "most" kids though, is it?

Quick question though, why is that? Are there certain locks or certain higher risks of injury or something (which was the argument when I was practising Aikido why BB's shouldn't be below 18 or practice the wrist locks hard)?

I know I'm being a bit dim today, but I'm not sure how that kind of judgement call works. What am I missing?

Which probably means the grown man should put more effort into their training, especially in an art where grades are given out based on being a better fighter/good application of technique.

I didn't say they couldn't handle it, just that most kids are there to have fun and don't tend to want to stick around if the training starts getting too hard.

 

To put it more simply, age itself is not a fair thing to limit ability on when we are talking about something that can be learned. I am not suggesting that the BB grade should be given to all children, but nor would I suggest it should be given to all adults.

I have to go up against all sizes in my class, as you do too no doubt. If I find myself against a smaller person I try my best to limit weight/power related moves, fight from the bottom, never use muscle to prevent a technique etc.

We have one guy who trains with us that is very small framed, perhaps even to the point where he could be considered to have dwarfism, he is a 'grown man' but has the physicality of a child - can he earn a blackbelt?

 

Agreed.

The age of the children isn't the issue for me, it's more a matter of "have they had enough life experience to have the mental/physical/psychological discipline to try to train honestly?". No reason why you can't ask the same of any adult, but the lack of life experience most kids have had does work against them on this one (IMO).

Same, there's no point wailing on someone who can't fight back to the same level because you're heavier/taller than them.

The other way round though, I personally don't mind. I'm perfectly happy to kickbox/spar/grapple with guys bigger, stronger and heavier than me just because it means I have to work harder. Sometimes I even surprise myself by actually doing something OK - like being told by a kickboxing coach that my opponent about 3/4 inches taller (he was 6'4"/6'5") with longer reach was going to win trade offs with our fists every time, so I made a point to get in and hit him more than he hit me.

Based on size alone? I don't see why that should be a problem.

 

So we agree its not size, good.

Now life experience.. by your judgement counts for a blackbelt, for others it might not -some would base purely on ability to execute a technique or knowledge of subject matter.

I think life experience is important only if the blackbelt includes a teachers license - if it is just a reflection of skill is isn't relevant to me.

Next up, on the subject of life experience, I have seen kids with more life experience than adults many times. If a child grows up with a significant traumatic event, or in adverse home situations they can become a lot more savvy -again not the norm - but I am not suggesting we promote every child to blackbelt, I am suggesting that it should be an option.

We have for another example a man with fairly severe mental issues in our club, autism I believe - he has nowhere near the ability to comprehend the nuances of life nor is a savvy as a child who has the street smarts that tough things teach.

Technically, to say a child we are defining solely on the metric of age. Typically this does bring in the following:

Size
Internal Experience (training time)
External Experience (life experience)

And yes, 'typically' a child should have less of all of these than an adult it doesn't mean that there are not adults who possess less of all of these. Furthermore, examples of those adults will include people who hold a black belt.

I base solely on ability- I take out the following from all equations:

Gender
Age
Race
Sexual Orientation

They all fall into the same category of exclusion from a criteria on something other than the actual ability to perform the task or tasks at hand.

 

The real problem (apart from dented egos from seeing kids with bbs) is that those kids may believe they are great fighters.

BBs for kids is kinda McDojo, no?

 

That could be said for BB, adult or child, in any art.

 

Yup. Sure could. Thread is about kids though innit.

But children are more likely to "believe"

Though saying that....I know some right muppets.

 

All this kinda sums up what I said earlier in this thread. My kids have a very high level of knowledge at very early ages. They all lack the maturity to be BBS in my opinion. I purposely keep them from testing so that they will not be close to a BB until late teens. If they lack the discipline to stick it of until then, I will have been justified in my decision to make them wait. If they make it that far they will defiantly appreciate what they have earned much more than the 12 yr old who earned a BB by scheduled testing. Plus one of my Jedi knights has already switched to a new style after the mandatory 1yr try out period.

 

ok well heres my thoughts, IMO i dont think anyones "BB" is Worth more than anyone else's may be more difficult to achieve; but not worth more. although i understand what is being said about the skillsets and combat effective material involved with each rank.

 

In the kickboxing school I'm going to a black belt mainly seems to be about being able to perform a certain set of techniques. If you can do a spinning hook kick, etc to an adequate standard you pass the grading. Consequently we have children with black belts - I don't know exactly but I guess the youngest would be 11 or 12. If that's what a black belt means for us then why not.

Fighting ability has very little to do with it.

In sparring we have a kid of about 11 that comes along who's a purple belt. I don't mind sparring with him, I'm not learning much from it but hopefully he is. Obviously he doesn't have the reach or strength to really contend with me, a 6'2" adult.

Although he did try a flying front kick on me this week, I blocked it but he basically landed on my thigh . . . left quite a bruise.

 

Yes. He says they are ready. I say I am not paying for a belt. If he disagrees he waves the charges. . That being said a good head instructor always discusses testing with the parents
1 we as parents pay the bills
2 we as students pay the bills
3 mom is a respected teacher in the school
4 I left this one blank. Intentionally so that I can hear how I am wrong. No disrespect meant but a good parent should have say in their kids progress.