BJJ slamming vs wrestling slamming

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by roninmaster, Nov 30, 2014.

  1. roninmaster

    roninmaster be like water

    So we all Know slamming in BJJ is a big no no. immediate DQ in every tournament I know of. However is this more from a technical perspective or from an unsportsmanlike conduct perspective? The main reason I question it is due to the liberal slamming rules in different wrestling variations like catch, greco, and freestyle. Not to mention its usage in MMA. All three allow slamming yet don't seem to run the injury rate you'd expect from something like that. ( that I know of )

    Is slamming illegal due to the position you land inside the guard being very vulnerable to serious injury? or is it just because its a cheap low technical way to pass a guard- like small joint manipulation?
  2. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    My impression is that its the cheapness aspect. Banning it was an easier way of dealing with spazzy white belts dumping each other
  3. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I wonder if it's because slamming renders closed-guards ineffective? On my first day training BJJ I was rolling with a higher grade and I just stood up while in their closed guard lifting them off the ground, it caused a bit of a fuss. I had no intention of slamming my opponent, just wanted to make it clear that it was an option open to me (I had no understanding of the rules). Slamming is dangerous, but if you leave it in the ruleset then people develop methods to avoid being slammed, if you remove it from the ruleset then people will use techniques that would otherwise be discarded.

    I am a fan of the old judo rule where if you lifted someone to shoulder level you got the ippon, because you could have slammed them from there (In judo the guard slam is called Daki Age). A rule like that would be great for BJJ.
  4. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    I personally have never liked the "no-slamming" rule and it becomes an issue of controversy particularly in youth BJJ. I watched this video where the issue of Slamming came up and a bunch of parents freaked out because a kid got slammed and got his bell rung. The other kid wasn't trying to hurt him, but the kid who got hurt was jumping guard and the other kid reacted the same way any wrestler would. They teach these kids to jump guard and it basically means you are putting your safety in the hands of your opponent needlessly.

    My kids slam and get slammed in wrestling all the time. They have never hurt anyone or been hurt by it.

  5. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Not truing to brag but...Im pretty good at chewing up the guard, reason is I use the slam, I first learned it in the Army now I train it at my home gym. When Im in someones guard I guess triangles are my biggest concern next to chokes. If I can stand up and pile drive you or cork screw you then your in trouble. All that said, I think the suplex is a valid technique, in fact I use it in my clinch game, I suggest it for strong guys and anyone with a wrestleing background, I mean its just to easy.
    As far as DQ goes, I mean really...Its a good point but look at what usually goes on just before a dq, theres usually some attitude involved, Id say almost always really, its not the slams fault its the guy who used it against an opponet that dosent see it comeing. Usually its pretty bad by the way, Ive seen broken limbs concussions.
    But Jujitsu could allow slams if they wanted to, it would just be another takedown in the game, nothing much wouldchange really.
  6. bodyshot

    bodyshot Brown Belt Zanshin Karate

    Kave you are a gentleman and a scholar sir.
  7. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I'd prefer a ban on stacking over slamming. Stacking is just way too dangerous for the spine.

    Maybe treat slams like leg-locks and only ban at white belt?
  8. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Stacking's a vital part of armbar defence though.
  9. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    So is not doing BJJ. :p
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Slams from guard tend to land you on the back of you neck.

    They are dangerous, especially for kids. Bjj isnt wrestling, hence the different rules, theyre there to keep kids safe, you dont like that then dont enter them.

    Theres a lot of ways to avoid, negate and counter slams, but they key is slams are technically a big risk as your giving your posture away on the hope the slam will injure your training partner. Either way thats a lose/lose option.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    As is not arguing with the wife :)
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Theres a few events in brazil where its legal, plus mma comps, its fundamentaly the same just less guard jumps and no closed guard vs standing.
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  14. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I've seen people been KO from a Belly to Back Suplex (German). The impact is the from the shoulder blades and up and its from a height. But its very rare.
    But thats probably the most high risk (altho very common) move to pull off.
    It sounds strange to explain but with a German Suplex, you know its coming so you do kinda prepare for it. Tuck in the chin, squeeze the shoulder blades. Still slams the air from your lungs though.

    As a high risk move, its rewarded with the highest amount of points in Freestyle (5pts whilst other throws get 2 or 3).

    Points system has all changed now though, so its all scored the same (4pt) Not sure why but won't be seeing suplexes as much now.

    Is slamming banned from all levels of BJJ comps?
  15. Kave

    Kave Lunatic

    I can understand why slamming isn't legal in the kids division, you also wont hear me suggest that kids should be allowed to heelhook. Some moves should be restricted to the upper echelons of competition.

    Being guard slammed is dangerous and sucks, but it is very easy to avoid. If you are being guard slammed it is because you have put yourself in a dangerous position. Trust me, as someone who has been guard slammed I am aware of just how totally unpleasant it is. It is definitely a move that should only be allowed by higher grades. I actively avoid placing myself in a situation where I might be guard slammed, unfortunately I had to learn the hard way.

    I believe that allowing guard slams has a good effect on grappling. As Fusen noted it discourages guard jumps, and also you don't see the sad spectacle of closed guard against standing which in my opinion strikes at the heart of BJJ. I always felt that BJJ was meant to operate under a ruleset which encouraged the development of techniques easily transferable to fighting, and that situations like closed guard against standing, although legal, were not necessarily in the spirit of BJJ.
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    It's not allowed the same reason punching people isn't allowed (it's a sudden serious impact with the intention of hurting someone, ie, not a submission). It's a safe sport and we all want to go home uninjured. It also tells me that you can't pass guard to save yourself, so you get angry and spazz out and slam.

    Also, headbutts happen from guard slams.
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Its banned from all levels of IBJJF (i.e. mainstream) Gi and nogi competition.

    but obviously its allowed in MMA (although spiking isnt)

    Whilst Im not a fan of koala style guard jumps, I can see why, BJJ's defining characteristic is the use of the guard, rules that allow hard and yet safe training, and the emphasis on posture and leverage.

    Guard slams are dangerous and generally are used by stronger partners who cant open guard.

    They also only work to open guard if you injure your partner.

    re: wrestling slams, interstingly -

    ''What is a slam?
    Answer: USA Wrestling CT again refers to page 35 of the rule set forth by the NFHS. Although it may be difficult for any official to make a “slam” call. The definition is quite simple, A slam occurs when either wrestler lifts his/her opponent off the mat and returns him/her with unnecessary force. All must understand that either wrestler could be assessed this infraction.''

    I would say giving your posture away with the aim of injuring your opponent without improving your position unnecessary force.

    Heres some adult slams here - notice how in the main all the slammers have bad intentions.

    [ame=""]How to get DQ'd in BJJ - Bad Sportsmanship & Illegal Slam KOs [HELLO JAPAN] - YouTube[/ame]
  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Id agree, but add ''encouraged the development of techniques easily transferable to fighting'' whilst remaining generally safe as to encourage long term training.
  19. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    Guard slams should remain illegal for safety but you should get two points for lifting him above your waist for a three count IMO.
  20. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    If you can lift someone above your waist for 3 seconds there's a strong guard pass you should be doing for 3 points anyway. If you can't break a guard from that position you don't deserve points for henching someone up and standing there

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