BJJ, Judo, Sambo and Catch (this is for you, flashlock)

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by TheMightyMcClaw, May 23, 2007.

  1. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    Isn't the RNC still a fairly common submission in high level no-gi BJJ?
  2. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    That it is. And, uh, sorry if I didn't make the clear. But you got my main point, right? @_@

    Take care,

  3. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    I never said that. I said having a simpler stand up game could be better than a so-called sophisticated one. You should read slower if you can't get it the first time through.

    .[/QUOTE]hahaha, thats some strange logic. .[/QUOTE]

    It would be, yes, if that's what I wrote... but I didn't.

    .[/QUOTE]Yes sophisticated does = better. .[/QUOTE]


    .[/QUOTE]You could say exactly the same thing about groundwork. Judo's groundgame is much simpler than BJJ's, and i bet you'd be the first to say BJJs is better..[/QUOTE]

    It's not "simpler"--it's inadequate. That's a subtle point, so you'll probably miss it.

    .[/QUOTE] So Judo's standup is more sophisticated than BJJ's, but in this case you think simpler is better..[/QUOTE]

    I don't think Judo's stand up is more sophisticated, never said that. It works on the same principals of BJJ. Strawman, anyone?

    .[/QUOTE] Yet BJJ's groundwork is more sophisticated than Judo's, but this time being sophisticated is better..[/QUOTE]

    Wrong. You're confusing "sophisticated" with effective. You're just playing semantics, and not too well. The principles and techniques of BJJ are quite simple. The diffiuclty comes from the anti-intuitive nature of many of the positions (moving into the opponent when your gut tells you to move away, relaxing instead of fighting, etc.)

    .[/QUOTE] You started off well by saying that you had no experience of those other arts so you weren't going to comment, but then you had to go and make a load of ignorant nutrider comments anyway.[/QUOTE]

    You like to ride nuts becuase you're gay. Na na nee na na... what does name calling prove? You started off bad, are bad, and will end bad. I commented because McClaw wanted me to go on and stated he wasn't going to attack me.
  4. NewLearner

    NewLearner Valued Member

    Flash, you really need to learn how to quote.

    If you think that Judo's groundwork is not just simpler but inadequate, I think the argument could be made that bjj's standup is also inadequate. Both seem to be overwhelmingly better at one area thus making it pretty much even.

    If you think that anti-intuitive (wouldn't that be counter intuitive?) is not a higher level of sophistication, I am not sure what is.

    Since bjj comes from Judo, I don't really see how either is more sophisticated or less. What they really have is different focuses. Judo focuses on the takedowns and throws whereas bjj focuses on the groundwork submissions. Their sport forms have rules that enforce their focus. But both have plenty of each in their syllabus. Just as tkd has lots of things in it's official syllabus that is usually not practiced.

    As Kempofist said, many of these style complement each other and it is best to crosstrain.
  5. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    Okay guys, both of you sit back and chill. Time for me to get on my soapbox and rant a little.

    Flashlock's comment about the simplicity of the stand-up game is a valid one, and whilst a BJJ player will most likely get taken down by a Judo player, under BJJ rules, the BJJ player will then sub the Judo player (of equal experience) 95% (ish) of the time. And that's just how it is. A good Judo player knows how to keep a good base/posture in the stand-up, meaning your average BJJ player's shoots and modified judo throws are unlikely to work, and the Judo work on counter-throws will give them a sizeable advantage. But we are presuming that we are practising in a gi in a competition environment, where most Judo throws are more suitable.

    BJJ's strength is the basic emphasis on the leg takedowns (double, single, double underhooks and trip, etc.), which is equally applicable both in gi and out of gi, and very much a proactive method of taking someone down to their favored position. And on an untrained opponent, that's all you need. Judo and BJJ are both suitable for taking someone down, the difference being that BJJ is more likely to be useful when you get there. There is also less emphasis on throws that lead to you turning your back in BJJ, because of the risk of having your back taken. Whilst on an untrained assailant this is less likely to be a problem, it is still a risk that the shoot takedowns minimize (although, in turn, there is the risk of the knee to the face to counter).

    Hokay, I'm rambling now. To summarize:

    BJJ Takedowns good and simple. Judo Takedowns good generally, better in a competition environment, and complex.

    BJJ Groundwork excellent and complex (in competition) and potentially simple (in a non-competition environment). Judo Groundwork decent, Hold-downs excellent, Submissions - less so.

    So, um, there.

    Take care,

  6. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    Does anyone know exactly why leg takedowns aren't used more in Judo? From what I've seen of BJJ, at least at my division, the single leg rules all. Sambo also seems to use a lot of wrestling style leg takedowns. I know that both BJJ and Sambo have been influenced heavily by western wrestling, and that the leg takedowns are one of the most visible result, but it seems like this influence hasn't spread to Judo. Is this a cultural factor for Judo? Is it part of the rules? Are single-legs just flat-out illegal? I know that double legs (morote gari), at least, have been added to the official Kodokan syllabus, and fireman carries (kata guruma) are pretty popular competition takedowns.
  7. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    Grabbing the gi pants for more than three seconds (if memory serves) is illegal. I believe this is to maximize the use of shoulder throws and make the sport more spectacular and hence, more successful as a spectator sport. I remember seeing a Pawel Nastula HL where various Judo people commented on his style (driving leg-based takedowns) as all power, no finesse. That being said, he was phenomenally successful with them, so... *shrug*

    Located! ->

    I think that is at least one pretty serious flaw with the Judo ruleset that gives BJJ an advantage.

    Take care,

  8. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    Nicely put. You're right!
  9. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I personally, find it ridiculously easy to stop any variant on the X-leg takedown in a Gi, it's just so slow and easy to spot most of the time, you need to set it up either by catching your opponent completely off guard or with grip fighting anyway. I think it's more common in Judo than people think because they tend not to see it in higher lever competition for the reason that it is to easy to have it defended and end in a bad position.

    On Judo subs, I don't think that what we do is inferior to BJJ particularly (Armbar, collar chokes, triangle choke, RNC) It's just typicaly not set up from the guard much, instead it's setup off throws or throw counters and against the turtle (Another reason that a double leg can be a bad idea in Judo as a large % of ground work targts the turtle). In addition that is all you do in Judo typically whereas in BJJ you have much more available to you.
  10. TheMightyMcClaw

    TheMightyMcClaw Dashing Space Pirate

    I thought it might be a standardized grips thing.
    I've heard a couple people mention before that the gi helps stop the shoot. I still don't understand this, and given the number of times I've been single-legged at tournaments, I would love to. How does this work?
  11. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    Oh, I hear you on the double leg in a gi stuff. S'very true. Double legs, strictly speaking, are difficult to pull off 'raw'. However, with the various combinations of trips, body locks, ankle picks etc. etc. they do remain a potent weapon, even at high level BJJ competition.

    It's just that no-gi, Judo throws are much more limited than BJJ takedowns, unless the Judo player trains no-gi. Which very few do.

    Take care,

  12. hanakuso

    hanakuso Banned Banned

    Aho da na!

    Wow. :Alien:
  13. hanakuso

    hanakuso Banned Banned

    Now look here, if you're trying to say that wrestling is best of all, then...


    ...then you are a freakin' genius! :D
  14. Stalkachu

    Stalkachu resU deretsigeR

    In short, the gi means that most shoots from clinch range will require you to gripfight otherwise the grips will give them the control to stuff the takedown. And shoots from outside the clinch range are inherently unreliable in any context, since there's always much more time to sprawl. In my experience, though, the higher the BJJ ranks rise, the more fights turn into Judo matches on the feet, with the added point of individual fighters pulling guard. At white and often blue belt level, it's all about the leg takedowns and guard pulling. Later on, that gets mixed up a lot more as players who want to be on top need new ways to gain that position.

    Take care,

  15. hanakuso

    hanakuso Banned Banned

    :confused: Its slow and easy to spot because you are wearing a dogi? :confused:
  16. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Well, if they are shooting in from outside of gripping range then:
    a) You have about half an hour to react to it
    b) If you get even a slight contact on their shoulder as they come in, you can push of it to sprawl out on top and force them down into turtle/let them back up and try for your own hip throw as they come back up

    If they try to shoot in from gripping range:

    a) You'll already have some sort of grip on them so you can drive down on the shoot killing it's momentum through even a crappy grip
    b)If they have a lapel grip, they sprawl out, keep the lapel grip and go straight into a clock choke when you start to turtle up

    The exception is when your in gripping range and don't have a grip on the other guy, then you have a decent chance of pulling off a nice morote gari, but to do that you need to be a better gripper to start with, and if your a much better gripper then you can pick any throw you like really.

    If your getting single legged all the time I'd guess that your distancing was a bit off or your simply fighting people better than you that happen to favour the single leg, if you have one side significantly forward then I would be single legging you if:

    a) You had the same hand out looking for a high grip on my collar and you wheren't making any contact with either of my arms, so I could just go straight in from there
    b) You where standing to side on to me, or alternatively you wheren't turning fast enough when I stepped to your outside
    and most importantly
    c) Your within gripping range and have no sort of grip so you don't have much time to to sprawl out and don't have any grip to slow the shot and sprawl out from.

    If your getting single legged from a strainght on kinda position then your just weird.

    Or you might be fighting Rhadi Ferguson. You should check, ask your trainnign partner if he's a black olympic heavyweight Judo champ. You might just not have noticed *

    * Yeah I know he mainly goes for double legs, sue me.
  17. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Yeah, it pretty much offers mystical powers.
  18. hanakuso

    hanakuso Banned Banned

    Well now, that is somethin' right there!
  19. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    Alternatively see the post before that one :D

    Another thing I find about single legs (While I'm thinking about it) Is that if they do get a grip on your leg, if you can get the other one back enough the gi makes it kinda easy to get an underhook and then sprawl the other leg free.

    DISCLAIMER: This is just what I do against any grab to one leg including the single leg takedown but also te garuma and the like. I never realised I was consciously doing this till i thought about it just now. Plus I'm like a demi god* so this might not work for you if your only mortal.

    1) You have someone going in for the single leg with the grip on one leg
    2) They want to circle towards your other leg to stop driving you back and instead drive you sideways to complete thei takedown
    3) You can stall their movement to the side by placing a hand on their shoulder nearest your free leg and because of the gi friction I think you can keep it their more easily
    4) Grip the lapel of the arm on the same side as your gripped leg tug on it a couple of times to make space and then slide your arm under for an underhook
    5) At the same time switch your non underhooking shoulder block to a nice juicy high collar grip
    5) Now sprawl the trapped leg back to break their grip on your leg
    6) Use the high collar and underhook to turn them over

    * If we take demi god to mean really fat and quite strong
  20. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    I'm tempted to be rational and ask if you mean for MMA, Grappling comps, BJJ comps, Judo comps, self defence or what but I've instead decided not to bother because I know the discussion will make me sad.

    All I'll say is that I'm willing to bet a fiver that I've done more Judo than you have done BJJ and Judo put together and that I've done more BJJ than you've done BJJ and Judo put together.

    What with that huge amount of trainning that I've done in BJJ* and Judo*

    * 1 year and it wasn't even really BJJ as much as it was Gi based grappling in a class of mainly BJJ guys once a week when I could be bothered

    ** Just abit more than 1 year cos my Jitsu instructors also a Judo first dan and Judo's on the Jitsu curriculum.

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