BJJ, Judo, Sambo and Catch (this is for you, flashlock)

Interesting... a lot of these seem to reflect the different facets of Brazilian Jiujitsu. There is sport BJJ, and BJJ for mixed martial arts, and the oft-forgotten BJJ self-defense syllabus.... even the concept of Freestyle Sambo sounds very similar to no-gi BJJ; the addition of chokes mirroring the higher prevalence of leg locks in no-gi.

flashlock.... I'm not meaning to call you out or attack you or anything. Given your previous strong statements regarding Brazilian Jiujitsu in comparison to other martial arts, I'd like to know how this plays out with other systems which are similar to BJJ in technical application and have similar 'track records' in open competition and military service.

 

A lot of those arts you mentioned derived from jiujutsu. I personally believe BJJ is, currently, the highest form of JJ. As for Judo, BJJ blows it out of the water; I'm sorry to the Judo guys, but from what I've learned it is much weaker. You can point to instances of catch or sambo defeating BJJ, but that is nothing compared to the overwhelming success BJJ has had all-around, and just look at how many fighters study BJJ compared to everything else... it's just an easy choice.

 

Um....erm....I'm torn....I don't know what to say.....I agree with what you're saying....just not how you're saying it.....

 

Catch is a bit of an enigma. There have definitely been some practitioners that used it, but they don't seem all that numerous or visible at the moment and nailing down a "style" that catchwrestlers have isn't as easy as it might be with judo, sambo, or BJJ. Possibly because I don't see catchwrestling competitions being held anywhere, but the other three do have rulesets and tournaments. That said, there do appear to be some general trends. Catchwrestlers seem to like to go for top positions on the ground. They seem more willing to give up a good position while going for a submission than do other stylists. I've seen catchwrestlers diving for leglocks, especially toeholds (which they seem to like) more than other stylists seem to. Keylocks also seem pretty big. The standup varies a lot. It's better adapted for grappling without a jacket than judo or sambo. I guess it kind of resembles freestyle wrestling, but not as refined.

Sambo has a lot of variation in its rulesets. With combat sambo you get a lot of striking. Samboists seem to rely a lot on the standard cross armbar and seem more inclined to attempt the flying variant. They also seem to have a greater emphasis on leglocks than other styles, which might be partially due to the fact that they wear shoes. Standup looks a bit like a cross between judo and wrestling.

Judo is the one I have the most experience with. The standup is a major focus and is pretty sophisticated. There are a variety of hip throws, leg throws, foot sweeps, pick-ups, sacrifice throws, hand throws, and other takedowns. Most of the throws are pretty adapted to both parties wearing a gi. The ground game is focuses on positions like side control, the mount, scarf holds, and north/south because they're positions that won't get the fight stood back up and also because they score points. Most submissions are keylocks, cross armbars, or gi chokes and tend to be applied while on top of the opponent and sometimes from the open guard. Because stand-ups tend to happen so quickly, there is a lot of scrambling for position and stalling by a competitor in a bad position.

Comparing BJJ to these, I think one important difference is the lack of stand-ups. In judo, the rear naked choke isn't even considered a very good choke. In BJJ, it's arguably the most powerful submission. I think this is partially because in judo (or sambo with the rules that allow chokes), there isn't sufficient time to execute the choke against an intelligently defending opponent. This says something about BJJ, but it also says something about the move. It would appear that we have a submission that is very, very good if you have unlimited time to work it, but becomes worse in proportion to the time restriction placed on it. Are judo/sambo people just not good enough at applying the choke? Are they simply better at defending it than at attacking with it? Or is all this just a natural feature of the move (maybe it just takes more time to sink this choke)? Of course, whether this is good or bad for BJJ depends on your perspective. Some would argue that if the move takes so long to sink, it's not worth bothering anyway, that moves which catch the opponent instantly are more useful/applicable. Others might argue that judo/sambo are missing out on an important part of grappling.

Another consequence of the increased ground time is the proliferation of unorthodox positions. In judo/sambo I've seen open guard, closed guard, and half guard. That's about it. BJJ seems to regularly feature butterfly guard, half-butterfly guard, spider guard, x-guard, de la riva guard, rubber guard, etc. Some are obviously more prevalent than others. But is this an advantage or disadvantage? I don't really know.

I think if any of the differences are a glaring weakness for BJJ, it would be the standup problem. When you can spend so much time on the ground and it's bound to go there anyway, there's not very much need for a sophisticated standup game. And this brings up what I believe to be a weakness in judo/sambo: these practitioners get used to being stood up by the rules. As such, I've never seen any of them train standup techniques from any ground position (techniques to get back to your feet when you want to do so and the other person might want to stop you). When I wrestled in high school, standups were huge. I was more into reversals myself, but I still learned how to stand up and used it in matches. In judo matches, the techniques my opponents use to stand up (after I've reversed them with one of my awesome reversals) is curling up in a ball and waiting for the referee. I dislike this--a lot.

But let's say I were actually good (I'm not). I can use my superior clinching/throwing skills (actually, I suck at throws) to gain top position when on the ground. If the BJJ-er uses his superior ground skills to work for guard or reverse me and get a better position, I can use my standups to get back to my feet and try again until either I get caught with a submission or I catch the BJJ-er with a submission. In this hypothetical (and ridiculous, since I suck) situation, I'd say I have the advantage. Maybe no one aspect of my ground game is quite as good as my BJJ-based opponent, but it's at least good enough that after I've thrown him and have side control or whatever I'll be in a good spot to try to finish him. It's a weakness I can exploit to a certain extent--I almost always land on top when the fight goes to the ground and I am skilled at getting back to my feet if I'm in a position I don't like. My opponent has no comparable tool against me. Whenever we're standing I have the advantage, and some of the time we're on the ground I have the advantage.

This can easily be mitigated if BJJ-ers develop better standup. And I think most of them do ( and even among the ones that don't cross-train there is a judo/wrestling-derived standup game). Just like most judoka attempt at having some proficiency on the ground rather than relying on stalling to stay on the feet. But in both cases it's technically not necessary. There are those who can an will avoid expanding their skillsets. And short of changing the competition rules I'm not sure how this could be fixed. I guess the easiest answer is cross-training.

Still if I were to change something, I'd be more interested in lessening or even eliminating the standups from judo/sambo than trying to fix BJJ's deficiency of standing techniques. Being able to stall for ten seconds (or less) and avoid any other groundwork is a much bigger problem in my eyes than having people that pull guard and avoid any other standup.

 

But you can't perform a RNC on a high level BJJ person--it almost never happens at high level in BJJ comps. It happens so many times in UFC type matches because most of those guys' BJJ sucks.

[/QUOTE] I think this is partially because in judo (or sambo with the rules that allow chokes), there isn't sufficient time to execute the choke against an intelligently defending opponent. This says something about BJJ, but it also says something about the move. It would appear that we have a submission that is very, very good if you have unlimited time to work it, but becomes worse in proportion to the time restriction placed on it. .[/QUOTE]

I don't know... I guess it's situational. Once the choke is on, it takes mere seconds to make the person pass out. Getting to it vs a skilled opponent... very difficult (time consuming).

.[/QUOTE] I think if any of the differences are a glaring weakness for BJJ, it would be the standup problem. When you can spend so much time on the ground and it's bound to go there anyway, there's not very much need for a sophisticated standup game. .[/QUOTE]

Um... yeah... and? Why would you want/need a sophisticated stand-up game if a simple one will do? Sophisticated = better? K.I.S.S. If I wanted to be controversial, I could say BJJ's stand up game was better than stand up focused arts--because it solves the problem quite easily (feint, shoot/ throw).

No, I'm not ignorant of the thousands of times stand up guys have succesfully sprawled and brawled... I think that is more about the lack of the shooter's technique than the inadequacy of BJJ's answers.

.[/QUOTE] But let's say I were actually good (I'm not). I can use my superior clinching/throwing skills (actually, I suck at throws) to gain top position when on the ground. If the BJJ-er uses his superior ground skills to work for guard or reverse me and get a better position, I can use my standups to get back to my feet and try again until either I get caught with a submission or I catch the BJJ-er with a submission. In this hypothetical (and ridiculous, since I suck) situation, I'd say I have the advantage..[/QUOTE]

Wha-wha-... WHAT? Your hypothetical just sounds like an even fight. Anything could happen, but when you're on the ground, as you've hypothesized, your big answer is that you can use your "standups to get back to my feet and try again..."? I think you're kind of... leaving out some things? Before you can "stand up" you'd probably have to get to an advantageous position first, that means you'd have to know what you're doing on the ground. So, are you taking BJJ to fill this yawning hole in your game?

.[/QUOTE] Maybe no one aspect of my ground game is quite as good as my BJJ-based opponent, but it's at least good enough that after I've thrown him and have side control or whatever I'll be in a good spot to try to finish him. .[/QUOTE]

Just curious... how many BJJ guys have you sparred with? It just sounds like none, because I... can't believe what you're writing! Sorry, I'm not ripping on you, but you cannot be serious! You're looking for submissions? Try to get one from a blue belt. Maybe you will do well, but most don't.

So, how many blue belts or above have you grappled with? If not many, hey, no problem, I see where you are coming from with your theories. But if you haven't, just go to a club and roll with them for 30 mins! I think you'll get quite a wake up call, but who knows, everyone is different.

Hm... I'm sounded like some of my forum opponents! The difference is, I'm not saying study BJJ for 5 years before you can have an opinion, but it's such an important, fashionable art right now, try it for, oh, 3 months? Try ONE class with a purple or above. I'm not a bloody MA expert--but I've studied MA and enjoyed it, and I've met and worked with world class people. Man, nothing compares to BJJ. I'm talking 10 X better than anything else out there that I've seen. Try it, then tell me how easy it was as you've outlined above.

 

Not really that familar with Sambo, but I don't think catch wrestling came from jj.

As far as bjj being the highest form of jj, I am not sure that is a logical form either. Judo might say the same thing because they tend to be far superior at takedowns and throws.

From what I know (which admittedly is not that much), bjj is probably the best at submissions. However, it is probably the worst at takedowns and takedown defense. I would also say that sambo and wrestling is better at positioning.

Is there really such an overriding success of bjj in the ufc? Royce did exceptionally well against people with no grappling skill. Yet when he and Shamrock were in their heyday, they had a draw and Shamrock was a shoot fighter. Shouldn't Gracie have won since he used bjj if it was superior?

Look at the top people today. Hughes, a wrestler, who defeated the Prodigy Penn. Liddel who is Kemp with some bjj who has lost to wrestlers but is primarily a striker and out of all his fights has only had one submission. Couture, Ortiz, Evans, and tons of others are far more wrestling oriented.

Does anyone that wants to succeed in mma need to spend some time crosstraining in bjj or a lot of submissions? Absolutely. Just like a bjj blackbelt that doesn't crosstrain will lose in mma.

Is there really more people training in bjj than anything else? No. Not even remotely.

 

I was wondering who would pick up on it

 

Pretty accurate assessment. Since all the major competitions in mma are no gi, that seems to be a good reason for studying it. However, in self defense, how many opponents will be without a shirt?

The lack of standups is one of the keys to the strategy of sport bjj. Because they will not be stood up, it tends to be a much more patient match.

I would really figure that as an advantage of bjj with having more flexibility in the ground game.

I have found the same problem. Like yourself, I came from a strong wrestling background before doing a short stint in judo and doing some crosstraining in bjj today. Our bjj coach (we are a tkd school that added some crosstraining) is not a blackbelt or even any type of certified gracie instructor, but studied exclusively bjj for years before coming to our school and helping in this area. He can't do squat in takedowns or defense against me. I can usually move and position him very well. I can stand up against pretty good. Yet he submits me a lot.

 

So having a worse standup game is actually better? hahaha, thats some strange logic. Yes sophisticated does = better. You could say exactly the same thing about groundwork. Judo's groundgame is much simpler than BJJ's, and i bet you'd be the first to say BJJs is better.

So Judo's standup is more sophisticated than BJJ's, but in this case you think simpler is better.

Yet BJJ's groundwork is more sophisticated than Judo's, but this time being sophisticated is better.

You started off well by saying that you had no experience of those other arts so you weren't going to comment, but then you had to go and make a load of ignorant nutrider comments anyway.

 

I think he's basically just saying that since a Judo guy's standup in this theoretical matchup would be better than a BJJ guy's standup, he'd begin with the tactical advantage, because he can get the BJJ guy on the ground and be in a dominant position to start off with. The BJJ guy would have to first escape and then work his game, but he starts at a disadvantage. Theoretically. Since the Judo guy is in the more advantageous spot, if it looks like he's about to get reversed into a bad position, he could use one of his "stand up" techniques and get back to his feet to regain advantage. Theoretically.

The only problem I forsee in this argument is that altho the BJJ guy might be put at an early disadvantage from a successful Judo throw, you still have to realize that you're taking him into his home town. The ground is where he eats, sleeps, poops, dreams. It's his bread and butter. The "stand up" techniques would have to be damn fast, and you'd have to be pretty sensitive as a Judo guy on the ground to feel the BJJ guy reversing the situation. (But it is possible).

Anyway, to fuel the style war:
Gracies Invade a Judo School in 1988
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3798914820158882836

Rickson vs Nishioka
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q4JUpT8rEow

 

That's true as stated, though it would seem that there was some cross-over for both systems. In the book "Blue Blood on the Mat", I think it was mentioned that, at least in the US, the idea of subs as a legit way to finish of an opponent was partially influenced by judo/jujitsu. The reason some wrestlers prefered subs was 'cause some guys were too big to adequately pin (one of the Zbyskos is mentioned). Meanwhile, "Count Coma", the guy that brought the Gracies their judo/jujitsu, had also studied CACC. So BJJ may have some catch influence, possibly in the leglock department.

I always found it funny that the Gracies talk about the Kimura lock as if they first discovered it when Kimura fought Helio. The funny thing is, that match was in 1955, but Judo and Catch manuals predating that clearly show the same hold (ude-garami or double wrist lock, respectively).

That's not going to work against someone with a modicum of grappling experience. You're also not taking into consideration that once the gap has been bridged, someone with good balance will be able to avoid the unskilled takedown that's typical of the strategy you describe.

BJJ blows Judo out of the water? In the ground game, certainly. I don't think anyone will deny that. But in the stand-up, Judo's throws are better than anything typically taught in a BJJ class. They're not so "weak" once they drop you on your head a few times.

To the best of my knowledge, Sambo and Catch have mostly stayed within their own circles. They didn't see the need to challenge other systems. That's why you're not going to see tapes of the "Lou Thesz Challenge". Though I know for certain that at various times, Catch has faced off with boxing, as well as Judo/Jujitsu. I can look up some stats, if you need proof of that.

The number of fighters training BJJ compared to the others may have more to do with the availibility of BJJ schools than anything else. Sambo is popular primarily in Russia & Eastern Europe; CACC is nearly a lost art. I have to drive 2.5 hours to find a guy who emphasized Catch-based grappling, and excluding CSW, there are maybe a dozen legit CACC schools in the US. There are probably a dozen legit BJJ schools within a half-hour drive from where I am. Your reasoning is faulty here. If I went back to the 80's, I could use that same logic and say that TKD was the best art, 'cause that's what most people trained.

Because simple ones don't always work. Most of the BJJ guys I train with, unless they've also trained wrestling or Judo, can't complete a takedown against an equally-skilled opponent or better. You need a sophisticated stand-up game 'cause sometimes your single-leg trip doesn't work, and if that's all you've got, then your killer ground game becomes null and void. For an untrained opponent it's not a bad strategy, but what if the other guy doesn't know that he's supposed to suck?

I think Oversoul's got a good point about BJJ not being complete. He's good enough at takedowns and top control to probably avoid the ground, if he wanted too, against the typical BJJ guy. I know I am, and I've only been doing BJJ since January. The guys who train BJJ at my gym typically are only there for the BJJ, so when you see them in Judo or MMA class, they're suddenly fish out of water. Their takedowns, throws, and strikes are all mechanically wrong, unless they've had prior experience in wrestling, TKD, or what have you. In a true NHB situation, I'm confident in my ability to either defeat them in the stand-up, avoid their typically sloppy takedowns, and either stalemate, GNP, or submit them on the ground.

... and part of that is 'cause I come from a no-gi, Western wrestling style which emphasizes the stand-up game as well as the ground game.

 

I've noticed the "position before submission" attitude seems to not be as prevalent in other styles of submission grappling. In my judo training, submissions always seemed to be treated as something you do when you can't get a pin. From the descriptions of catch wrestling, there seems to be a similar attitude of "position OR submission."

 

I don't think the challenge match mentality is as strong as BJJ, but it's still there. You yourself mentioned the Catch vs. Judo matches, and we have a number of Sambo guys (Fedor, Arlovski) who fight in major MMA events.

 

Or alternatively, constantly throw and standup immediately while the person is recovering from hitting the ground. Getting slammed to the ground hard helps to take the fight out of you and slows you down. If I were going to really fight a bjj guy, that is what I would do. Strike from range with throws and takedowns and be on my feet as much as possible. Stay out of his strength and in mine.

 

ya know what my problem is with these types of discussions? It's that all these arts and styles, train properly, albeit at their own niche of the game. Together they complement each other, separate and having practitioners of each competing against each other, really only shows who can impose their gameplan the best, and who is the better fighter, not which is the better art.

It's ironic, because this is exactly what people accuse me of doing when in style vs style arguments on the main board, where I am bashing someone for "dead" training, and they all whine about how "all arts are dangerous in the right hands," and "It's not the style it's the individual" type idiocy. Difference here, is that all the styles listed, pressure test and train their stuff live, and in most cases compete with it. Trying to pinpoint which is the "best" really is a moot point.

 

I think that is one of the best posts I have seen from you. Very true.

 

I'm not trying to figure out "is BJJ best?" or "Is Catch Wrestling best?" or anything like that. I just want to discuss the relative merits, similarities, and differences of different styles of submission grappling. I don't mean for this to be a Style vs Style thread; just a comparison.
Also, I think that submission grappling styles are easier to compare, because they are a) heavily defined by a competitive aspect and b) relatively similar. Trying to say, compare Goju Ryu karate and Yoshinkan Aikido would be much more difficult, as they are very different from one another, and do not have defining competitive aspects.

 

I should have clarified. My post wasn't directed at you, but rather the turn in direction the thread has taken.

 

An excellent post.

 

Sorry, I need to pick out a single line from a number of fairly well-argued points. Because, frankly, it's ridiculous. ^_^ In BJJ competition, the RNC is relatively uncommon because, well, they're wearing a gi. All direct neck chokes are harder to sink with a gi. In turn, gi chokes are kinda easier to do when wearing a gi than when you're not. ^_-

And it happens more in UFC type matches because you're being PUNCHED IN THE FACE. This tends to mess with your sub defense for some strange reason (although I will admit that some people's sub defense leaves something to be desired). But the RNC is very much common. See Roger Gracie vs. Jacare, ADCC 2005 absolute finals, for one highlight reel example.

Will perhaps engage further in the overall discussion shortly. Ahem.

Take care,

Stalks