BJJ Class Etiquette

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by flashlock, Mar 27, 2007.

  1. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    But according to all of the other threads I've read eye gouges are impossible to pull off. When they are executed they are completely ineffective.

    So, how does the simple declaration that a style is susceptible to eye gouges warrant a broken elbow?

    It is amazing to me that people think this bjj teacher is anything other than a complete jackass.

    Does he have any tales of storming a kendo/iaido dojo?
  2. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    I'm leaning this way myself. First, I'm presuming that a BJJ brown belt is going to easily defeat a Kung Fu Black Belt who has not done any ground training. Call me a nutrider, but I'm convinced that BJJ only is superior to Kung Fu only. Crosstraining changes things.

    I'm also presuming as a result that this brown belt was never really at any genuine physical risk, unless the entire school decided to gang up on him.

    As a brown belt in BJJ, another presumption is that he has done armbars often enough to know how much tension is necessary to pop an arm.

    So, even if this kung fu guy didn't tap when he should have, having an armbar locked in means that the brown belt was in complete control of the situation. He could have transitioned to another submission, or maybe he could have just 'suggested' that the sifu tap before his arm pops.

    I don't think I'm making a big deal out of this, at least I don't mean to. I wasn't there, and so I'm willing to accept that I don't know the complete story. That said, one of the things I like about BJJ in general and the guys I train with specifically, is that there's a quiet confidence about the entire group. I don't have any issues with sparring at another school or anything like that. Where I start to raise an eyebrow is when BJJ guys are injuring other people, and where I really start to wonder is when they're proud of it.

    Honestly, popping the sifu's arm is like picking on the little kid, and seems somewhat like bully behavior to me.

    Anyway, I don't have a lot of time, so I'm writing this pretty fast. Hopefully it makes some sense. :)
  3. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    That's very nice . . . what part of the post is about etiquette again?
  4. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    The swearing, and the "disrespect" toward other arts. I've never encountered that before.
  5. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Well, I'm glad you like it. I'm sure you fit right in.

    The BJJ instruction I received was at a local MMA school. My instructor wasn't a champion of anything, I beleive he is a purple in Machado BJJ, and the 2nd head instructor had a gold medal in Judo and plenty of schooling in BJJ. The school was really excellent. Anyways . . .

    It was actually a really interesting mix of traditional teaching and sports training. When classes started, there was no talking while he was talking unless the instructor asked a question or queued for a response. Overall, was real laid back. He would curse in class if there were no women or children present, but I think there was one female student he would curse around. We listened to good music. He went to the bar with some of the students. We did alot of compliant and semi-compliant drilling early in the class, and would spend the last 15-30 minutes or so rolling.

    EDIT: OH YEAH one other thing, both of the head instructors would bow whent they walked in the door, alingwith the top students in the class. They all bowed, and the instructor would get after you if came close to the mats with your shoes on.

    Overall, I think he was pretty respectful of other arts.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2007
  6. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    He's strict about the shoes on the mat thing to. But when I asked if I needed to bow at the door, he said, "No. This is Brazilian, not Japanese." :)
  7. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    So boo-hoo for the Kung Fu guy against the big bully BJJ guy? I mean, he only insulted my teachers art and agreed to eye gouges... what a prince. The Kung Fu sifu got hurt, but he deserved what he got, otherwise he wouldn't have gotten it!
  8. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Dude. Really. It's not a movie. Please don't say anything about your master's honor. I'd have to vomit.

    As for the eye gouges, I'm of the firm belief that the threat of the super deadly eye gouge from a kung fu guy who has never crosstrained in a grappling art is an empty threat... about as realistic as if the sifu "threatened" to armbar him. Not very likely.

    So, from what you've posted, it sounds like he essentially took out someone who was functionally helpless to stop him. Again. I wasn't there, so I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm sure there was other stuff going on.

    Ultimately, it's all good. If you like where you train and the atmosphere and culture of the school suits you, more power to you. Have fun. Keep training.
  9. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    Who's said they're impossible? I remember a lot of threads on how they're incredibly low percentage, especially from an inferior grappling position, and how they're not nearly as effective as people claim they are (Yuki Nakai...) Really, let it go. Eye gouges are just the adult version of pinching someone on the playground.

    A false claim that a style is susceptible to eye gouges was in this case just part of a lot of provocation if you re-read the story. Even so, I personally think a ballistic armbar is too far - that's what chokes are for, if he passes out no harm done and it gets the same point across.

    As to the last bit, I know of some JKD/Kali/BJJ people that have done very well in mixed matches against kendo - but that's not the point at all. Do you expect them to storm the Marine marksmanship camps as well? Again, you're missing the point.
  10. flashlock

    flashlock Banned Banned

    I agree. Eye gouges as some kind of anti-grappling "fix" is just lazy. I like going for the eye jab (JKD) --not to rip someone's eyes out, but because you don't even have to make contact. Your body has automatic reactions, and when something flies toward your eyes, you close them, and jerk your head away (similiar to a groin protection reaction). To me, that is using the cocept of the eye gouge in a broader, more stratigic sense: as distraction. Yeah, go for an eye gouge, and best of luck, but they really aren't that effective, not enough to make up for a lack of grappling skills anyway.

    I wasn't there at the Kung Fu class, I wasn't fighting, and I doubt I would have broken the guys arm, but getting to know my coach, he has a good heart, he's passionate about BJJ, but when it's "on"... it's really on.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2007
  11. 1bad65

    1bad65 Valued Member

    Another thing that the eye-gouge proponents miss is that in grappling you are not as dependant on sight as in stand up. I know guys who close their eyes at times, and I will do it at times when I'm a little tired. Also, an experienced grappler is using his sense of touch alot more than sight alot of the time anyway.
  12. Shiho-Nage

    Shiho-Nage I'm okay to go.

    Yeah, it was more of a nod and prod to those other threads and those so adamant about how completely ineffective they are. You're the only one that bit, thanks.

    As for pinching, that too can be used to good effect to create an opening.
  13. Stevebjj

    Stevebjj Grappling Dummy

    Didn't I say eye gouges are inneffective? I still think it's true. Now I know that no one reads my posts! I'm crushed! :cry: :)
  14. Atharel

    Atharel Errant

    I encourage you to try pinching or eye gouging against a 6 month white belt or above. Or an average wrestler, of which there are hundreds of thousands roaming the deadly streets of the US.

    And I reacted because you were distorting the history of the threads. I don't like misinformation.

    1bad65 - I do that a lot as well, especially when on top. Gets me to focus more on balance and weight distribution and less on target hunting for a sub.
  15. 1bad65

    1bad65 Valued Member

    Can't believe I forgot to mention this concerning lack of vision. Look up William Vandry. He is a Machado Black Belt here in Austin (however I train at a different school). He is LEGALLY blind from a gunshot wound to the head. He suffered that BEFORE he was awarded his Black Belt. He is/was an active and successful competitor even after he received his wound.
  16. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Says in the website that this was when he first started BJJ.

    Seemed like it was just a matter of escalation, not initiated by the BJJ instructor. And also seems like the rules were very clearly stated each time they were changed. I think the BJJ instructor didn't do a thing wrong - the Kung Fu instructor should have shown some humility and admit that his system has limited ground defense or grappling, and advised his students to cross train if they were interested. Instead he goes ape-sh*t. Got what was comin to him.
  17. Agutrot-

    Agutrot- Jack of all Trades

    Maybe they just tell him it's a black belt.
  18. Oversoul

    Oversoul Valued Member

    Good one.
  19. 1bad65

    1bad65 Valued Member

    That's a pretty low class thing to say.

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