BJJ Basics class?

BJJ is full of tricks, its not a bad thing, ive got lots of them for tapping out big ignorant whitebelts, but if they're easily avoidable, they shouldn't be a part of your fundamentals.

also since eddie Is super flexible, and his school specialises in super flexible attacks, I doubt it took him long to adjust.

 

If you search for "Joe Rogan On Professional Jiu Jitsu" on youtube and skip to 5 minutes in, you'll see the clip I am talking about.

I won't link to it because it contains lots of swearing, unsurprisingly.

 

are you talking abour requiring atributes, or being aided by attributes?

Because they're two very different things.

Ill check the link out in a bit!

 

I watched the link, eddies adjusted accordingly and now doesnt play middle mount, he prefers quarter mount (back takes from here are eddies speciality), or super low with hooks in, (he also plays super high s mount though) because of the heel hook hail mary escape.

saulo also doesnt play much middle mount, neither do most good jiujitsu guys, middle mount is where upa escapes work best too.

The key here is going straight from low to high/s mount without spending much time in middle mount, but spending enough time in training there, to ID their escapes and counter early.

Also a good mount to heel hook escape doesnt require flexability, but is aided by it.

DH do you train bjj at all?

 

Well, everything requires attributes, it's a spectrum, isn't it?

Nope.

 

What weight categories were these done in? This tends to be more at the lower weights, which points less to superior attributes developed as you get more advanced, and more to physical attributes already possessed and simply fine tuned which are two different things
Go watch a heavyweight roll and you wont see too much 10th planet stuff for example
By and large what works at the blue belt level and what wins matches at the black belt level are the same techniques, its just the black belt has very smooth ways to set the subs up, and is so tight you wont be able to escape when it hits.

As for showing long technical sequences, well you have to make training fun and when you are an advanced belt rolling with lower levels you can make some cool stuff work because they haven’t seen it yet, but when you are rolling with the same level you are you tend to see the same high percentage moves and positions

As deadpool said you lose to stuff you aren’t aware off, and BJJ is always evolving but the main positions and the main submissions are always present for a reason, they are high percentage

 

Yeah, I get what you're saying. I'd say that "smooth" suggests attributes to me. We could get into a semantic conversation as to where technique begins and attributes end, but I don't have time for that right now

 

so we are going with experience been an attribute then? If thats the case everything is an attribute and the discussion is kind of pointless?

I tend to think strength, speed, flexibility, reflexes etc are attributes which aid you in your training, but experience thats pushing it a bit isnt it?
Because in the situation i described above thats the difference, they have more experience in those positions, they know what you will do before you do, and how to counter and set it up

 

No, I was thinking of sensitivity (you know a certain number of outcomes, but the more sensitive to your opponent you are, the faster and more accurately you react to your opponent's movement, this is also reflex from repetition) and proprioception (again could be termed "sensitivity" - accurately placing your opponent's body in space by feel, as well as reacting in time with their movements and being able to preempt them).

I don't think "experience" is a particularly useful descriptor to be honest, because what is "experience" other than the development of technical understanding and the attributes needed to execute that understanding?

If blue belts and black belts are doing the same techniques, what separates them?

A white belt can be shown and told how to do a perfect technique by a black belt.

What stops them performing that technique to the same standard as the black belt? I'd say it is a lack of attributes - proprioception and coordination, spatial awareness and sensitivity, along with calmness under pressure.

 

http://www.straightblastgym.com/philosophy/

DH Half way down, theres a section on non attribute based training, I think it might be worth a read.

 

"To help define what it is, let’s explain what it’s not. You can tell when someone misunderstands the basic premise of the principle when you hear something like this:

“All technique requires attributes when it is applied, whether it is strength, speed, etc., therefore, how could there be such thing as Non-ABT?”

When someone says something like this, what’s missing in his or her understanding of this important SBG principle is the importance of the word ‘Based’.

Non-ABT training doesn’t mean we work delivery systems that require no attributes. That is of course impossible.

What Non-ABT training means is that the functionality of those delivery systems, as measured by an individual’s ability to apply them against resisting opponents, isn’t based in the fact that the individual has superior attributes, whether that’s size, speed, or explosiveness.

Instead, it is based in the fact that the individual has a superior technology, better technique, better posture,*more efficient human movement.

Non Attribute Based Training, and the search for Efficiency in combat – are synonymous. Just as intelligence in combat, and efficiency in combat are.

Does Non-ABT training mean attributes don’t matter?

Of course not.

What it means is that in the more we can shelf those attributes, whether it is strength, speed, etc., in training – forcing ourselves to focus on better, more efficient technique, the better we will be when we add those attributes back in. And as obvious as that may seem, it is a training principle that is lost on many.

Non-ABT is what allows a smarter, lighter, female who possess much greater skill in a delivery system, for example, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, to choke unconscious a much larger, stronger, male, who is fully resisting.

Non-ABT is what happens when less efficient, less effective, less intelligent training methods make way for more efficient, more effective, and more intelligent ones.

And it is the only way to ensure that you can eventually gain the skill needed to survive and overcome, through the power of proper technique and superior physical technology, a bigger, stronger opponent.

Does Non-ABT create a methodology where weight classes don’t matter?

Of course not.

But it is exactly the methodology anyone wishing to fight successfully above his or her own weight class needs to understand, and adopt.


"

 

what separates the levels of understanding, is the levels of understanding, the ability to select the right pressure/move, the timing to do so smoothly, and the understanding to know when to bail and select another movement/pressure.

From top or bottom armbar position theres an entire web of possabilities and options to know.

Knowing a single armbar finish doesnt make you good at armbars.

 

I've read that before, thanks.

I get it as a practical distinction, a training short-hand, but in terms of physiology and logic it is an arbitrary one.

I'm not personally fond of dualistic notions of technique and attributes - they're outdated and don't fit the data, IMHO.

If technical ability were somehow divorced from physical attributes, wouldn't technical acquisition be a linear process, rather than an exponential one?

 

You don't consider timing to be an attribute?

Anyway, regarding the above, if we were to isolate one arm bar finish, are you saying that you could not tell the difference between a white belt doing it and a black belt? There would be no qualitative difference in how they perform the technique?

 

I think a BJJ basics class is a great idea.
Back when I did it I found putting the pieces together (positions, escapes, reversals, transitions, submissions, etc) tricky.
I went to a "just pitch in and do what I'm teaching this week" type of club and it seemed to take ages for me to get a cohesive picture of how it all fit together (let alone actually get skill in doing it).
A few months of targeted basics classes would have helped I think.

 

Timing isnt a physical attribute, its a mental one for sure, but not physical.

I dont think by the term isolate you mean what I would mean.

If your isolating armbar finishes, then how to cope when your armbaree trys to stop your finish is what separates a white from a blue, never mind any other grade.

 

Yeah, I just don't like conceptual frameworks with that kind of mind/body dichotomy; I believe it is a false one, and I believe that the evidence supports me. I like to work from evidence-based models as much as possible.

You're right; I'm not using in the way you would mean.

I'm talking about taking a snapshot from rolling where a person gets an arm bar.

But, taking your example above, are you saying that there are no qualitative differences between techniques as performed by people of different skill levels? If someone does a technique then that's it, like a binary on/off state?

Let's not worry about people trying to stop the technique for now, let's keep it simple and talk about compliant drilling of one specific technique.

 

No theres a host of things that makes a technique work, if you remove timing, then the majority of it is using the correct posture in the situation to maximise your pressure, and also how that single isolated technique intergrates into the larger situation your in.

Really DH, go to a bjj class and roll a little, actual practical experience will definitely make you reassess many of your questions.

edit - youve misunderstood my initual answer, im not saying a whitebelts finish is the same as a black belts.

Im saying any fool can bridge holding an arm, how you choose the right moment to do that, and how you counter all the escape attempt is what makes a good armbarer, good, its not only having a forcefull bridge.

edit edit, a armbar from top finish is the same as a bridge, (mostly there's definite exceptions)

 

BJJ somehow uses the neuromuscular system in a different way to other MA?

I'm saying that posture, or form, as well as timing and other attributes lumped into the "technique" category, are a function of the neuromuscular system; a set of integrated systems rather than solely the brain as a discrete system.

So does that mean that you are saying there is no qualitative difference between a white belt's finish and a black belt's finish? If you saw a photo of each performing it, they would look identical?

If that's the case, why do people talk of "refining" technique? How do you refine something that has a binary correct/incorrect outcome?