Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Robin-of-loxley is a spoofter with no experience of anything other than some Wing Chun - he even admitted this a while back, so his comments can be ignored as irrelevant.

 

In cima those smaller movements become invisible and the opponent is off-balanced at first touch. Your hip throw is still just a hip throw,

 

Lets entertain this for the moment and say it is correct - can you show any evidence of this against anyone is not willingly moving or "in the correct structure"?

This is the remarkable Wang Shu Jin - and I can very clearly see his movements. Worth noting he was a fighter and not a talker

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGjE-zM9MqE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGjE-zM9MqE[/ame]

William Chen again showing visible movements

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4tMo8gE2Yk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4tMo8gE2Yk[/ame]

Dan Docherty showing VERY visible movement...right on the chin

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL4kaox2ZY"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DL4kaox2ZY[/ame]

A recent clip again showing very visible movements

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlhH0PAsaZI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlhH0PAsaZI[/ame]

When I hear "invisible" and "it's different" I always raise an eyebrow because it clearly isn't when you actually look at "Internal" fighters as opposed to theorists. It is also why I mentioned earlier the tired old cliche "you have to feel it" line because I have splashed hands many times and it confirms exactly what I am looking at on the video

I am happy - nay delighted - to be shown footage to the contrary, but equally I am not holding my chi.....

 

Yet more applied "Internal" with very visible movement

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3kAq_Bmomc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3kAq_Bmomc[/ame]

It seems that the more you actually apply pressure, the less the "invisible" appears and the more movement you see - again the difference between theory and practice and those who have actually fought over those who haven't

The Warrior and the Scholar used to have blurred lines.....

 

I think it's a big red flare when people can't describe in detail the mechanics of what they're doing and it ties back to the problem with the chi theorists. If you could actually measure and detect it most of the people who are on the chi bandwagon would hop on to something else. It's not that they're for chi or taiji but that they're against actual concrete explanations because they want it to be holders of a special truth in the same way as conspiracy theorists. It should be unsurprising that the 'chi is real,' crystal healing, taiji is magic, and tinfoil hat crowd often tend to overlap.

 

It typically is a way to hide the fact they cannot actually fight - not the be all and end all of course, but there is a "proof in the pudding" aspect to so called "external" systems that the chi pixies advocates do not need to adhere to as long as they can just do parlour tricks

 

Here's a very simple Nei Gong exercise from Chun Man Sit. When I compare videos like this to the Hung gar training it's not hard to spot where 'internal' practice has influenced many parts of modern Hung gar. From what I've read on the history that's because the 'internal' arts where the concepts of Nei Gong originated were combined with 'external' arts later on by various pugilistic notables before and after Wong Fei Hung, with those elements already being very common in Chinese culture (like Buddhism) And of course much nei gong ended up outside the martial arts sphere entirely didn't it? 'Five Animal Frolic 'Qi Gong is medical in nature, not martial, but it was found at Wudang. Not all 'internal' practice therefore, is martial in nature, this is also meant as a healing practice and so forth.

At the very least to an objective observer I would think, this is mild physical exercise, with an awareness component and an endurance component, and even a bit of movement component.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFf7d-3PkMY"]Neigong Secret Revealed - YouTube[/ame]

 

Scholar:

- you can be soft without going through hard.
- to use 4 oz to fight against 1,000 lb.
- ...

Warrior:

- you have to start from hard and end with soft.
- the more that you can give, the more that you can take.
- ...

Here is an example that the more force you can give to your opponent in the forward direction, the more force you can borrow from him when you take him into the backward direction. If you can borrow from your opponent 1,000 lb force, you only need to add 4 oz on top of it to make your throw work.

Is this "internal"? I don't think so. It's just a "common sense" to "borrow force".

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdMhFv-TeLg&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdMhFv-TeLg&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

 

I have never seen that happened on the mat. Can you put up a clip to prove it?

 

Not visible to the eye instead of invisible, if you prefer.

Here is Sam Tam, a man who has fought many challenge matches, showing the differences between the subtle, minimal movement needed to control someone by yielding and the more commonly seen method with a big step and retreating rather than yielding. A lot of the yielding is happening on the inside of his body and is not visible to the eye.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qtxrWrHGYD0[/ame]

 

And yet I can see exactly what he is doing

Every art - EVERY art - has those same hidden aspects to a greater or lesser degree.

 

IMO, yielding without moving your body to be outside of the attacking path is very risky. The reason is simple. What if the attack is a punch to your head, or a dagger stabbing to your chest? You just can't expect that all the attack are just a "push". The Taiji Lu also exist in general MA system as well. Here is an example.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDtZdZThzPs&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDtZdZThzPs&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

To be able to move yourself out of the attacking path, lead your opponent into the emptiness, and give him plenty of space to fall is a very important part of the MA principle. You want to take over your opponent's position and you want your opponent to fall at your original position. This principle is not owned by "internal" only. Here is an example.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ6OB_5HC1k&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ6OB_5HC1k&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

 

If you can see exactly what he is doing than why can so few people do it?

 

The difference is that with cima the emptiness can also be inside the person not only between the two people. I can lead someone to the emptiness inside of me not just to a place on the mat.

 

That's a bit too "abstract" for me. What do you mean "inside of me"? Could you provide more detail or put up a clip to show it?

 

Can you see someone playing a viruoso piano recital?

 

I saw Bach's Goldberg Variations played on a double Steinway 3 years ago and the piano was the star of the show. All the music was internal but I could hear it. The guy asleep in the seat next to me didn't appear to hear anything unless he was listening internally.

 

You hear (experienced) what was external yet could not see what was happening in the artist (internal) to manifest it correct?

So why can't everyone perform on the piano to that level?

:happy:

 

They don't have access to the world's only double Steinway.

And only that Canadian guy could play it on a regular piano.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CrPrJ0ih8Kc[/ame]

 

http://www.yichuankungfu.com/cheuk-fung/hunyuan/

The limbs feel like they are spring-loaded and the opponent falls in and pushes himself away. I let my body respond rather than apply a technique.