Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm right with you on this huoxingyang.

    I wonder if we also agree on the concept that internal principle for power generation is full body power. In other words, if I'm using an isolated mechanic, like rising power from the hips and legs, then that is external because it isn't full body. Full body means that every part of the body is working in harmony... the bones, muscles, nervous system, facia, tendons, ligaments, mind, spirit, etc. ALL connected together. No isolated mechanic. Do you also kind of see it this way?

    If I only use full body power, then that is internal. However, any combination is external. For example, if I use full body power and then add in some torso twist for extra power, this is external (mixed) because the torso twist is an isolated mechanic. Any mix of full body power generation with an isolated mechanic for power generation is still external.

    Building the structure for full body power generation is internal method. Building structure for other power generation mechanics is external method.

    Many martial systems are a mix of building structure for isolated power generation mechanics AND building structure for full body power generation.

    Are we on the same page on this?
     
  2. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Probably something along that line, not familiar with the triple burn description, but terms like along the lines of standing meditation types will develop internal if done properly.
     
  3. huoxingyang

    huoxingyang Valued Member

    I think we're on a similar page. I don't like to say that internal is using "full body" power generation though as, well, my arm and leg muscles are part of my full body :p
    In my understanding, something as simple as a jab which incorporates arm strength (including the clenching of the fist), body/hip rotation, and leg power, is a combination of internal and external. By combining the concepts you end up with "full body power" if that makes sense...
     
  4. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I believe full body power is a principle by itself. For instance, if I relax my body in a standing position facing north with my right foot point northeast. When I turn my right foot so the toes point north, my head turns with this so that I can look west at an angle. So the movement of my foot is connected to my whole body movement. If I turned my head independently to look left, that is not full body.

    Now to build the structure for full body power, when my right foot turn and I'm able to look left, all the points between my toes to the top of my head are connected. Everything moves together for full body power. (And of course there is infinitely more to it than my simplification/illustration).
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  5. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    My external style teaches using full body power.

    Actually, is there really any "external" art that does not teach full body power? I would be very surprised if this is the case.

    What style of MA does not teach one to use the full body?

    Really? Is there any style out there for example- that just teaches throwing the arm out there in isolation for a jab?

     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You are kind of lucky to get the principle of full body power in your regular training. I had to pick it up later.

    Most hard-style training emphasizes power mechanics other than full body, probably because they are easier to learn and use quicker. Sure these mechanics are combined in different ways. Hook punch is combination of torso twisting (back and shoulders) power combined with rising power (leg and hips)... If we are aware of the full body power methods, we can add in full body power to the hook punch too.

    It comes down to what structure comes as a result of your training. For example, in karate forms, I was always taught to look before turning. The fact that I'm turning my head independently of the rest of my body is building a habit to break the full body connection. In other words, my basic forms training already building a structure that I need to break (unlearn later) in order to really use the full body power principle.

    Edit: So mostly, it is bad habits that can be develop that break the connection of full body. Then once the full body power principle is understood, bad habits must be broken, and then training can and should incorporate this principle to develop the structure that promotes full body power.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I have to say that I have never trained in a credible system that does not teach full body - rather than Aaradia being lucky, perhaps you were unlucky?
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I had really good teachers. It came down to the structure being developed through training.

    Teaching to USE full body is not the same as teaching to build the structure that develops full body.

    In boxing for instance. The concepts for how to increase power with natural movements (full body) is there in technique. If you look at Mike Tyson's movements you can see that there is a lot of full body connection that adds power to his punches along with the other mechanics such as leaning, torso twisting, stepping, and rising power generation, body alignment, pivot points, etc. It is a mix of these components with the full body power added. So one way to look at it is that without full body, all the different components of power generation could not be added together. It is full body that allows all the components to be additive to power.

    However, OUTSIDE of including full body as part of technique, boxing really doesn't take a scientific approach at developing structure for full body power. You kind of have to figure it out yourself a little bit at a time with some hopefully big break through by training, experience, and education. Coaches see something and make adaptions to help and new tricks are picked up.

    The flip side is to take full body power as a separate principle in itself. To have training methods that are mostly devoted to developing just the full body power, so you build a structure that facilitates full body power from natural movements. Now you can add anything else you want to this. So is your training primarily in (1) full body power principle + other power generation methods OR is it (2) OTHER power generation principles + full body power generation?

    I see these as different paths but the principles are the same. I found the issue in "(2) OTHER power generation principles + full body power generation" was that it didn't take much to build some bad habit that neglected the full body principle. So breaking bad habits can be frustrating, especially deeply ingrained ones from years of training.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I don't think turning one's head to look where one is striking breaks full body power generation at all. Looking where one is going to strike rather than striking blindly just makes sense when actually learning how to fight.

    I think that is taking the idea a little too literally.

    If one's power comes from being rooted, turning the waist etc. Just because one looks where one is striking before striking does not negate the power of utilizing the feet, legs, waist, etc. in a strike. Are you suggesting that turning the head is a significant part of how powerfully you can throw a strike?

    I can throw with full power utilizing the rest of my body. But it won't do any good at all if I miss my target because I am not looking where I strike.

    No, I disagree that the difference between an internal art and an external one is if you turn your head first.

    And yes, in forms, sometimes one turns the head as they strike and sometimes before. I can think of instances in my external art where I do both. If I change to striking what was behind me, yes I look first. But the rest of my body utilizes full body power generation AND I can see my target!

    At other times, one turns ones head at the same time, when one can see the target and least peripherally even beforehand.

    And I am sorry, but if a school is not teaching a scientific approach at developing body structure for full power, and you have to figure it out for yourself- IMO something is wrong with that school specifically- probably not the style.
     
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The turning head example was additive to a previous point I made. You can see where you are striking, but instead of turning the head independently all the way to look at the target before striking, you turn part of the way in a more natural way and look at the target from an angle.

    I'll go back to Tyson as an example:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUTdwfe5xsk"]Mike Tyson ™ ✰ Top 12 Knockouts ✰ - YouTube[/ame]

    His head turning independently of how the body moves is very minimal yet he can still see the target.

    So I ask about parts of forms where you are taught to turn the head independently from the body... what is the purpose? What would the form be like if the head was only turned with the body? Is that so wrong?
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    For one thing it starts the spiral
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yes, I can see that with a spinning back fist for example. My point is the spiral is a different power generating method from full body power generation. Or rather, full body power is a principle for how the body moves in a natural state before we train the body to use these other power generation methods. It doesn't even have to be formal training, a toddler might tense up and do a hammer fist, so even at very young we start to train other power generation methods.

    I know I have some crazy ideas and ways to explain things. I come from the concept that a technique becomes principle when you can understand and apply it as your own.

    I was having a conversation about how I figured out how to create torque using the waist, the grandmaster I was talking to was happy I had discovered my own way. It wasn't at all how he did it. What was important was I was on the path forward. It wasn't the end but the path that was important.
     
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, first, off, your description above clarifies things quite a bit more for me. The turning the head in sync vs this idea of independent completely, it is more a matter of degrees and using peripheral vision.

    I don't believe I said independent of body movement, though, just looking before one does the strike.

    I was mostly thinking of when one changes direction radically- like striking what was behind you. And even then it isn't totally independent of body movement, but it does happen before the actual strike.

    Students tend to blend the moves too much and then one is striking before looking where one is striking. and yes, that is wrong because if you can't see your target, you have a much bigger chance of missing.

    Look at the move in starting at 29 seconds. This is the move I was thinking about. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX70PyZXlSo"]Choy Li Fut - Siu Mui Fa - by Grandmaster Doc-Fai Wong - 1986 - YouTube[/ame]

    Anyways, full mechanics and understanding of body mechanics and connection (or the science of understanding this) is good martial arts - external or internal. It does not exist only in one.
     
  14. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well, maybe I am just not understanding your definitions. :confused: Because to me, one still utilized the full power of the body in a spinning backfist- spiraling doesn't change that.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The vast majority of the form done by Doc Fei Wong avoids turning the head independently of the rest of the body. I would just say that one move has a special purpose.

    Well I am using full body power as a principle. Basically effectively moving while the body is in a fully relaxed state. So there cannot be any overt tension for the principle to be applied fully. When the head is turned by itself, that creates isolated tension and breaks the connection so even though the spiral has power, the spine is twisted so it doesn't follow the full body power principle. The spinning back fist done as a spiral gets most of its power from the torso twist (back/chest and shoulder) power generation method. Stepping power and leaning could also be added to the power generation. Full body power could still exist at the point that the head aligns with the spine, but that would require really good timing to hit right at that moment.

    How much full body power do you see demonstrated in this video?

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9kxtJpRmw4"]Final Male Kumite -60Kg. Amir Mehdizadeh vs Douglas Brose. World Karate Championships 2012 - YouTube[/ame]

    edit: I see kind of one that stood out as at least having the connection of full body at around 6:08 in the video. It isn't clearly full body power, but there is minimal extension and the head is aligned with the spine. At least a large part of the force is from relaxed stepping with full body for power, IMHO.

    Edit 2: 6:08 has a twist of the spine outside the hip track. It may not be full body power because of this. So I will say there is still a connection, even if the alignment is poor. The evidence is that it hit like full body power. The hit didn't seem externally like much, but the opponent was affected by it clearly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2016
  16. Simon

    Simon Moved on. Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Now you are being foolish.

    Either post a full explanation or the above will be seen as trolling.

    If you have anywhere near the experience you claim you know the above is nonsense.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You mean Qigong? Neo-Taoist Mantak Chia stuff?
     
  18. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Yes, that kind of stuff, are you familiar with any of it?
     
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yes, I am. I followed some of Mantak Chia's exercises for a number of years, and there are still some Qigong exercises that I do to this day. Some years back I had an experience that matches the descriptions of the Lesser Kan and Li awakening.
     
  20. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    The ancient name for what you're talking about is rou. Rou nei gong.

    'Internal' methods related to the 'soft method' within Tai Chi Chuan are recorded in written Shaolin classics as early as the 17th century.

    Rou Quan (soft fist)
    Rou Gong (soft work)
    Rou Shou (soft hands)
    _________________
    Yang Taiji Quan

    Also notable is that passage below links 'Qi' to nei gong training specifically to breathing. As in without breathing skill, great internal skill is not possible (being the 'driving energy' of nei gong). Breathing and cardiovascular health in general being so critical to combat sports...perhaps THE most important thing when you really sum it up. And so now it becomes easier to identify 'Qi' and internal cultivation of it as so important to early Chinese martial artists.

    http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle36-ShaolinSoftBoxing.htm
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2016

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