Biomechanics of Motion and Quietness

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by runcai, Feb 8, 2016.

  1. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Yes, seriously , but anyway it is hard to reply when some one bans you till end of month. Here is a small description of internal external, do not know if it is what you want, but read it and see.

    Internal" isn't a fighting method in itself, it's a methodology for power generation and the basis for (for lack of a Chinese or English term) "aiki" -- a specific kind of internal structuring that allows you to control the body of another -- instantly upon contact. If your opponent attacks you, you can receive, absorb and neutralize his power and then return it to him, augmented with your own added power. You can either bounce him off, stuff him downward, suck him in and seal to him and smother him with your own "sticky" body. Controlling his center, even briefly, buys you enough time to do whatever you need to subdue him -- throw him or take him down, choke him, or whatever other sequence of attack avails itself.
    So, if he throws a hook punch, you can use that hook punch. In fact, you would WANT him to try to punch, kick or grab you because any contact he makes with you provides the pathway for you to control his center.
    External method relies on torqueing the hip, pivoting on the foot, and using other "outwardly generated" power sources to drive technique. By contrast, Internal method manipulates fascia, tendons, breath, joint connections and other "inside" things to create "inwardly generated" power. It allows you to hit and kick without chambering or torqueing the hip or pivoting on the foot. It also allows you to "have no center" so no one can find where your body mass is focused. This makes it extraordinarily difficult for a non-internally trained person to sweep, throw or take down someone who has good internal method.

  2. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    All copied from another site.
  3. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

  4. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Yes it is, I copied it a long time ago, because it was a very good description of what I think internal is, because it describes what I have noticed in my experences to a tee.

    If you find people who actually use internal, this is what they will also say is happening or have experienced.

    To me , this is a good description without going into mumbo-jumbo desription.

    Thanks for posting that link, that was a good thread.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well this much of the above is true (fact): "Internal" isn't a fighting method in itself, it's a methodology for power generation and".

    Pretty much everything after that is at best theory and at worst speculation.

    Internal method does teach a form of power generation. What is missing from the referred to quote is that there are many forms of power generation and what is labeled as external method can use all of them, including what is taught in internal method. What should be said is that if you DO NOT train in using a power generation method, you probably will suck at using it (FACT!!!). Further more, the referred to quote leaves out stepping power and other forms of power generation, as well as leaving out weight shifting, which is part of most power generation methods.

    OMG, external uses stepping and internal uses stepping for power... but I'm going to leave that out of my quote because it contradicts that external and internal are completely different and I'm going to stick my head in the sand instead. Please don't let anyone know I might have to actually train in external movements to actually accomplish anything.

    Just try to stick with facts and when something is theory, that is okay too as long as it is understood to be theory. Stay away from speculation, but if you have to include speculation, please clearly indicate that it as speculation and not something that you can prove so we won't hound you for evidence.

    That's so funny Simon. :happy:
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I do disagree with the statement, but more importantly, it is dishonest or just lazy to not give credit where credit is due.
  7. 23rdwave

    23rdwave Valued Member

    It's also dishonest to act like you know the difference between internal and external. Your opinion on the two is only good for laughs.

    Am I the only one who knew he was quoting another source? No, Simon knew right away. How was he being dishonest?
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    I agree - the fact people claim there is such a large difference is laughable.

    The description applied to external mechanics above shows an incredibly shallow understanding and explains why some hold the "differential view"

    Anyone who had legitimate experience with "both" methods - and yes I am in that group - will say the same thing; that they are basically different starting points arriving at the same destination

    Because he did not source it at all - its' one thing to paraphrase, but to tear something completely is a bit sketchy...especially when teh question was give YOUR opinion on it

    Hell, even if he had said "my opinion matches this..." it would have been something
  9. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    Well it just proves my point that you are just external, do you even read what you type, stop trying to act like you understand, you don't.

    External is your commonality with the karate guy, you can't develop internal from doing external. Try going to the thread simon posted, maybe it will help you realize what internal comes from doing , not from doing external training.
  10. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    It's all facts., not any theory.

    Doing external is done by everyone, it is normal power generation, changing which foot you use or step with is not even close to what we are talking about, try reading the thread simon posted, maybe that will help.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2016
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Remember the old saying about "assume"? Well it's half ain't making one out of me though

    Serious question - leaving aside anything else - do you know who I have trained with on the internal side? - I emphasize this because it is telling

    The thing is when I talk about common ground you instantly assume I meant mechanics, because you are at a beginner level of understanding about what an 'external" system actually is...furthermore you have little to no experience in aforementioned systems.....I would further venture the hypothesis that you have little to no real world violence exposure or even exposure in a full contact non-complaint setting

    I have both - in spades

    This is not an appeal to authority by the way - just setting some context

    The problem with screen chats is that there is no way to know who or what someone is...I however have a VERY clear public profile, train with world class and world renowned martial artists and masters and am lucky to count most of them as close personal friends

    So again, I reiterate that your description of the so called 'external' mechanic is actually wrong at anything other than a "first year of training" approach to things...and as you by your own admission do not do external and you claim that is "all' I do you have ZERO rebuttal to my observation

    Seriously, the divide and bitch fests between internal and external stylists is meaningless....some like crunchy and some like smooth but the flavor is the same
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Point of example - I was teaching CACC last night and used a specific technique to achieve a specific end

    In Bagua & Chin na it is known as "monkey peels fruit" and involves little physical exertion....And guess what? These "internal" guys do it exactly the same way as I granted this is only a single technique, but think for one moment - nothing exists in a vacuum and where there is one there is always another

    and another

    and another
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "The Tao gave birth to One.
    The One gave birth to Two.
    The Two gave birth to Three.
    The Three gave birth to all of creation.

    All things carry Yin
    yet embrace Yang.
    They blend their life breaths
    in order to produce harmony.”
  14. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    It still seems like you are still talking about external only, Try reading the thread from rum soaked fist that simon supplied.

    I have more years of external than you, well maybe you might have past me at 15 years, since it sounds like external is the your only engine.

    It really does not matter who you think you know or train with, because they can not do it for you. Since you think internal is some beginning level, that just shows That your Version of INTERNAL is not my Version.

    Name dropping will not mean much, if you only do external. IT is good for sport fighting and seminar sign ups.
  15. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    One must learn the way of The Crisco if they truly seek mastery.

    Smooth and silky, yet when heated can turned the toughest foe into hard, crunchy brittle as it bubbles and boils around them.

    Soft, hard, internal, external . . . . these all just seem like vague sexual references when in comparison to the ways of The Crisco.
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Thanks for pointing that out.

    I'm not claiming to know the difference. I'm claiming that the depictions of external method by SOME claiming to know internal method are really shallow. It isn't laughable, it makes me sad.

    It would be dishonest if he was claiming those words were his. Avenger cleared it up. That wasn't his intent. He just liked what was said and agreed with it enough to repost it here. So it was more neglectful than malicious.
  17. ned

    ned Valued Member

    If he knew what he was talking about ( i.e through experience gained actually engaged in learning an art ) he would'nt need to post other peoples opinions :rolleyes:

    (Also, if Simon had'nt posted the link I'm sure he'd have been happy to keep quiet and pass it off as his own thinking.)
  18. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    It's more of other people's descriptions, and it is much easier to deminstrate by touching hands, than explaining to people who know nothing or have no points of reference.

    I have plenty of thinking, the problem is simplifing it into something that an external person can relate to., I remember reading books on this stuff and not having a clue what they were talking about, because I had no reference, until you Gain a reference from internal training , you will not understand much.
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    You do realize to be fact it has to be indisputably the case. But I would settle for someone using it in a real documented situation or even in something like an MMA fight and then pointing out how the experience was different.

    Do you have any documented evidence, not simulations or training (which is theory)? It is fact when used in real world, not training or demos.

    I read much of that thread. Not impressed.

    Misunderstanding about power generation. Let me clarify that I'm stating that there are many methods of power generation. Stepping is a method of power generation itself. Different power generation methods are combined in techniques. The use of relaxation state in generating power from the core is another one of the methods and can be combined with others. In other words, the methods are shared among all, just some emphasized more than others... and if you don't train and understand a method of power generation, you probably aren't going to be very good at it.

    What you call doing external is problematic. You are only seeing the surface. External training can and does go into internal power generation, or more specifically, the use of relaxation state in generating power from the core. Of course training in internal method goes into other things not directly part of power generation, such as Chinese medicine, herbalism, etc. But things like structure, alignment, sinking, rising, stepping, etc. are common areas of training between different martial methods.

    For example, the commonality is described in an article in Jack Dempsey-Master of Xingyiquan by Brian L. Kennedy, J.D. and Elizabeth Guo, B.A.

    One of the authors copied the work here:

    What do you think about that article?
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Here is the strange thing Avenger. I have experienced such things from others, even a few grandmasters. I've felt nothingness and been tossed around like a rag doll.

    I've even managed to do it to others.

    The difference between where I'm at and where these others are at is in consistency. They can do it by habit (e.g., almost all the time), whereas I can only do it some of the time. We know that real skill means consistency, so I'm a long ways away from that.

    One difference between these others, some of them grandmasters, and whre I see your descriptions is that they understand the long path of going from boxing and Muay Thai, fighting on the streets and in the ring, to getting to softness/void. So they give me pointers on how to look at something differently and what adjustments I can make in training to move towards that goal.

    It's mainly in breaking bad habits I've developed through the years and adjustments, and being perceptive of things that I didn't look for before.

    When there's a guy who can knock me out with a boxing punch and throw me around using almost no effort in the ring, then when we tells me things about it, I call that fact. Getting tossed around in training, is theory and simulation.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016

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