Being Used.

Recently I have joined a MMA club called F2 Submission Fighting. In this club there are some pro fighters, and even a guy in the UFC I believe. The guy who runs the entire thing is from the Militage Camp, and says he has trained with Matt Hughes. He doesn't seem to be full of hot air and lies, although he is a bit cocky.

Now, I know that in some gyms where people train for sport fighting (whether it be boxing, mma, muay thai . . . whatever) people end up getting used. They get to be punching bags untill they've been around for half a year and are noticed, or leave because they are tired of getting pounded. I'm sort of getting mixed messages from this place that I've joined and would like people's opinion.

I have recieved quite a bit of one on one instruction in Brazilian Jujitsu (which is all we've really done my first three classes, things are a little out of whack from what I hear due to school being out), and have learned a lot. But at times when I am grappling with people they coach the other guy, not me. It's a bit strange because I am the one who needs to be taught, as I haven't done any grappling before and really need the help (I've only been doing this three days). But, I have recieved a bit of one on one training in every class (as well as a little coaching). So it sort of seems to counter balance me being used to me being taught in my opinion.

Although I find that a bit strange (coaching the guy who has been there opposed to the guy who hasn't), it's not what has made me question the place. The head guy and my conversation with him has. I talked to him after class about when he thought people were ready to fight. He ends up telling me that it all depends on the training and all that jazz and he would get a fight for a person within a year of training if they were ready. Then we started getting into discussion about how since school (the university) was out, that there wasn't a lot of students. He said so many people cycle in and out that they usually just beat the hell out of them for a month to see if they stuck around, then start to coach them.

That sounds a bit shifty to me. He then tells me that I am really lucky to be there at the time I am, that it is rare for me to recieve the one on one teaching I have been getting so soon. I have also let the guy know that I want to fight and am looking to do it seriously.

So this is what I'm thinking of the place and am wondering if you guys agree. This place is a place where people take fighting seriously, but aren't willing to give you the time unless you put in the time (they'll use you until they see you are going to stick with it). I think I've been put in a good situation by letting the guy know I want to do fights, and the fact that I've come in at a time where people are low due to the university being out for the summer thus I get more teaching in.

I don't really want to be in a situation where I get my **** kicked and get no teaching at all. I don't really think it will end up like that, but what do you guys think?

 

i dont know man, sounds kinda sketchy to me. see if it improves in awhile. when i started Jeet Kune Do, i would basically practice by myself and the instructor would have me repeat basic footwork, and hand traps about a million times in the corner, because there was no like beginners, intermediate, and advanced classes or anything. so everyone was at different levels, theres only like 12 people in my class, all at different points in there training, so I'd do my uber uber basics, and eventually because of few students, i'd be an advanced students punching bag for a bit, so i kind of have been where you are, but i was always being taught the basics, untill i got them, and moved on. but when i first started i was a punching bag on a couple of occasions. see if they teach you, but if it keeps up and your just the training dummy, i'd get out.

 

i don't see the problem. students come and go, and after a while i doubt the teacher wants to bother with new guys who are just going to leave a month or two later. show him your dedication day after day, and before you know it you'll be the one being coached while pounding on some poor newbie

 

There is certainly the potential at your school for someone to get "used" without getting much instruction, but it sounds like that's not really what's going to happen to you. So while you may deplore that method of running a club in general, you may want to stick around anyway.

 

I'm with Skrom. What's the problem? It's not a traditional training model, so if that's what you're coming from, I can totally understand why you're concerned. (So my "what's the problem?" comment wasn't really fair. Sorry.) But this sounds like a pretty typical competitive training model to me. The coaches' time and experience is valuable. And they're giving it to the guys that they know are treating it as valuable. The guys they know actually appreciate what they're getting.

They don't know you yet. YOU know that you're going to stick around a while. But THEY can't know that. Because EVERYBODY says they want to fight, they're serious, and they'll be there for a long time. But I'd say about 10 percent of people actually follow through. Even less if the training is very arduous. So why would the coaches throw away their valuable expertise on people who are going to disappear the moment something else comes up in their lives?

Respect their training model. It's what makes them good at what you yourself want to be good at. Prove to them that you're serious.

It's funny. Traditionalists (me included) came up hearing all these stories about how so-and-so had to sit on a rock in front of the Shaolin temple for a year before the monks took him seriously and invited him in to train. And we all go "yeah, right on; it takes dedication to do this stuff." But then we see a real life example of that same mindset and we thing "what gives?!"

I'm not targeting you Sparkle. Lots of people would struggle with that. I'm just pointing out that the same principle espoused by the Shaolin monk story holds here. Even if they are all wearing spandex shirts instead of robes.


Stuart

 

Great post, Stu.


The first couple grappling lessons I had were like that, they just put me in with a seasoned player and I was twisted into a pretzel knot while they critiqued the other guys performance, they didn't start teaching me till they figured I'd stick around. In the meantime I was able to get some idea of how submissions worked and was able to learn what doesn't work in defending submissions. You can actually learn quite a bit just by going over how the other guy got the better of you; try to figure out what he did and see if you can stop him from doing it next time.

I've heard that in Japan the armor for Kendo can cost as much as five-thousand dollars. You can get cheaper equipment but no one will want to partner with you as it shows you are not serious about training and who wants to work with someone who isn't committed to what they are doing?

Seems to be a long standing tradition in martial arts of discerning how much heart a person has before teaching them. You'll see it at the temples, in the karate dojos, boxing gyms, muay thai camps, MMA gyms, etc... they all want some level of commitment from the student before training them.

 

You say that he trained with Matt Hughs, at that level he had to pay his dues. He wants newbies to pay thiers. He has others who payed thiers and deserve more coaching.

No matter high long you train or rank you have you SHOULD be coached since we know our techniques are not perfect .......yet.

Ya gotta pay to play as they say

 

Yeah Sparkle gotta say it actually sounds like a fairly safe bet to me. Shows they are serious about producing fighters rather than just looking for numbers. If your dedicated and serious a month or two isn't exactly a long time and if your showing up consistently, and training hard it won't take long for people to pay you a bit more respect.

 

...that and not calling yourself Sparkle will get you some respect

Sorry, I couldn't resist a shot like that.

 

Man that was a really low blow . I can just imagine somebody from the group comes to this site and sees this thread and they all start calling me Sparkle, lol.

Thanks for the replies. I'm just a little worked up because my pops keeps telling me all sorts of stories about boxing gyms and stuff in New England that he saw use people up all the time when he was boxing. I believe this is going to be a great place for me to start learning and start out with fighting.

 

My coach didn't give me the time of day for probably 6-7 months. He didn't really talk to me, he didn't spend any individual time with me, other than teaching me how to do the move in class. I've come up there and trained good, and worked on my basics and technique. Now he spends individual time with me and works with me after class if I stick around.

If you want to know the honest truth, I call that a "good training method." When you go up there, don't even worry about submissions so much. Just get with good guys, and try to escape from bad positions and try to hold good positions.

I haven't really got beaten up because I don't do the boxing, but I have been rolled over on, had my head squeezed off, and been stacked like the leaning tower of pisa.

 

Over all I agree that Sparkle doesn't seem to be getting a bad deal here, but that's because he says he is getting quite a bit of individual instruction and he feels he's learning a lot.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with ap Oweyn and several others take on proving dedication before "earning" instruction. If you look at any of my posts in discussions involving whether or not it's right for MA instructors to charge or worry about money I always state clearly that the instructor should charge and expect to make a reasonable or better wage for their time, because we live in the modern, real, capitalist world where they have to make house payments and pay rent, etc. they're not monks living in a monastery unconcerned with the material world, but this cuts both ways. If you advertise that you're going to teach someone MA and you tell them when you take their money that you're going to teach them MA, then you had better teach them MA. Otherwise you're lying to them and taking their money on a false premise. If you want to test their dedication, fine, tell them the first month (or whatever) they're going to be a punching bag and they need to suck it up and prove that they want to be there, or don't charge them until they've proven their "devotion". If you take their money you need to tell them what they're really getting so they can decide whether they want your services or not.

If I paid someone for golf lessons and they handed me a bag of clubs and had me follow them around while they taught another student I wouldn't pay them for a second lesson. A lot of people take a golf class or two and never play again, how is MA any different?

--Michael

 

the difference between MA and golf lessons is that MA is usually taught in fairly large groups. in addition, there is usually a wide range of skill levels, which makes it impossible to teach everyone at once. you're right that he should be getting instruction as soon as he starts since that's what he paid for, but that's just not the way it works; the coach's time is limited, and if he's got pro fighters in his gym, he can't afford to spend much time on random newbies. not until he knows for sure that the random newbie has dedication and potential at least.

 

I like my instructor's view on it.

You pay your money, which buys you the right to come to class. Anything else is just icing on the cake. Don't worry - the senior students will teach you more than the instructor during the first month.

 

I noticed some of you have said something along the lines of "my instructor didn't give me the time of day for the first 6 or 7 months". Are you guys serious?

I'm only 2 and a half weeks into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at American Top Team, and even though I'm new (although not the newest) The instructor pays close attention to what I'm doing, and corrects/helps me when he sees that I'm doing something incorrectly. There are actually about 3 or 4 instructors in my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class, 2 black belts, and a brown and purple belt that instruct also. I find myself getting help from the head black belt way more often than the brown/purple belt instructors. I think that's a bunch of ******** that some of you aren't getting quality instruction from the head instructor for a few months into it.

I'm not being 'used' as the original poster described either. Me and about 4 other people joined at about the same time, and the class is usually split up as follows:

People who have more than a more than a month or so of training are on one side of the mat, and consist of most of the class. They are instructed by one of the black belts and the brown/purple belt, and they do their more advanced drills, and whatnot.

The other side of the class which I'm currently on with the 5 other beginners, which is quite a bit smaller than the other side, we get taught the basics by the main instructor, who in our case is an experienced black belt from Brazil, and occasionaly one of the more experienced students.

I think if you are taking a class and you aren't getting quality instruction and help/advice for the first few months, then you are either being had, or the instructors don't care about you until you are a few months into it, and show that you are going to stick.

And to me, that's just not right.

 

In principle I agree with you. I think the whole Shaolin prove-yourself-worthy story is over-romanticisized. But if you look closely at Sparkle's story, he's hardly getting short changed. One-on-one instruction? Hell, I don't think I ever got that in 5 years at my first school. So the extent of this favouritism seems to be that when they were rolling, the teacher was giving the more experienced guy advice. Hardly one sided, given that he was also giving Sparkle one-on-one training at another time. Besides, Sparkle doesn't have the background yet to make proper use of the on-the-fly coaching anyway, I shouldn't imagine. It takes a certain amount of familiarity with the subject matter before you can absorb what's being said to you in the middle of a sparring match.

I agree that you pay a teacher for a service. And he should provide. But he did. In spades as far as I can tell.


Stuart

EDIT: Actually I'm really glad to hear that the teacher doesn't have the same problem as many schools that I've experienced. Just the opposite situation. The higher ranks get taken for granted, left to their own devices, and expected to teach exclusively without regard for their own training in favour of the new crop of beginners.

 

Check it out a little further.. but I don't get it. This is partially why I left karate, no coaching in fighitng. You have as equal right to coaching as the other

 

My instructor would correct me during class if I was doing something wrong, and he'd show me how to do a move during practice, but other than that, no I didn't get any individual attention.

 

I think Stuart has said everything I would say already, especially the part about coaching the older student. There is only one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet.

At some schools, esp. MMA gyms, there can be a macho, "us-and-them" approach. I've seen it in some schools where the instructor and a band of upper level students believe it is their perogative to beat on new students to see if they can hack it. While I think everyone should pay their dues, I also think that anyone should be able to train depending on their own goals. I think that treating a new student too hard can lead to a whole bunch of problems, mostly in attitude. You can end up with ego-tripping students and teachers who think that part of what they are supposed to do is take you, the new student, down a peg.

Granted, this is the kind of situation that you have to assess yourself. If the people in your gym are dedicated, experienced, and pretty humble about training then it's probably fine. They think that you'll learn just by having an older student work with you, and they're probably right. If, on the other hand, you're a punching bag and you feel like you're being dumped on in class every day by ego-driven jerks, you should probably look for a different school.

 

It really depends on the type of organization, for most MA schools what you describe is very much the case as they are companies offering services for sale. However, fighting gyms are a little different by nature. A gym's popularity and what they can charge is determined by how well they're fighters perform. A gym that consistantly produces losing fighters isn't going to last long. They'll let you come in,use the equipment etc... but unless they see some commitment don't expect them to spend a great deal of time teaching you. It's a long standing and fairly well known part of the fight game. No different really then most industries, if you want in you have to pay your dues.