Basic tips for initiating rolling?

Discussion in 'Brazilian Jiu Jitsu' started by Morik, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. Morik

    Morik Well-Known Member Supporter MAP 2017 Gold Award

    So I recently started BJJ. I have some prior experience wrestling.

    The no-gi class was good--I was decent against less experienced folks, and got destroyed by more experienced folks. I felt like I understand the basics of no-gi rolling and was just severely outmatched. I could follow what I did wrong, etc.

    In the gi class I struggle with rolling. My partner usually starts in butterfly. Any aggression by me ends up with them having a grip on my lapel, a foot locked into my chest by the lapel grip, and then it all goes downhill from there as I don't know how to get them back off, and if I don't get it back off they use it to keep progressing.
    I've tried not being aggressive once, but we both ended up sitting there just trying for sleeve grips or something, and eventually I ended up in the same position (I forget exactly what happened, I probably got impatient).

    Any tips for the very start/initiating without ending up in that lapel grip + foot to chest thing, or for how to get out of it?
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your problem in both gi and nogi will be understanding the guard,
    1) try pulling guard first so you can learn it
    2) you can stop the open guard by enguaging In the butterfly and work from there (sit on his feet)
    3) If you go at standard wrestling pace (I.e. 100%) people will do the same and make learning hard.
    4) dont be super defensive or super aggressive, just match pace with your partner.
  3. PointyShinyBurn

    PointyShinyBurn Valued Member

    It's kind of a big question. What form is your 'aggression' taking? One good basic passing strategy for gi is to stand, break any collar grips like:
    And then control both legs and toreando:

    Blocking the lapel grip here is first directly, by keeping your hand in front of your collar, then by standing up too high for your opponent to reach.
  4. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Building on that idea -- how about grabbing his pants legs (or ankles) and passing into side control? When you say he's always going for butterfly guard, in my mind I picture him with his feet nearest to you. That is, in my mind he's sitting on his butt and coming at you feet-first. That being the case, you should be able to control his legs by grabbing his gi-pants, and thereby stopping his attack.

  5. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    I did bjj for a bit. You have to learn to relax when rolling. The best rollers are relaxed when they do it. Also practice makes perfect. Bjj is not a fast art to learn. In most arts you will have a black belt within 5 years. In bjj its about a 10 year average for a black belt. Plus bjj is not intuitive at all. It does not come natural. This is why bjj is such a renouned style because when most people are on the ground, they are lost
  6. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    Okay, that has me curious now.
    Is it really like this in the States?

    Here, you have to train wayyyy longer for a BB (at least in a decent school; not sure about McDojos).

    In no class I was ever told: "I will take an average of five years to get a BB."
    Most classes here offer training twice a week, and even if you're really good, you will usually take longer.

    I train five days a week.
    I have orange in three styles, yellow in one and white-yellow in another.
    And that's only because I heard former experience - otherwise I'd have "only" one orange belt.
    After three years (Admittedly: Without my broken arm, it would have taken six months less).

    I mean - I know, I have demanding teachers.
    But five year to BB in nearly every art (except maybe BJJ)?
  7. Vinny Lugo

    Vinny Lugo Valued Member

    I have been to many places and asked many instructors the average time to get a bb. I keep hearing 4 to 6 years with 5 being the average. Some schools have an official testing day on a particular date for all students to see if they graduate. Others will base it on the individual and when they are ready they are pulled to the side and told by their instructor that they think they are ready to test.

    The sad thing is there are many schools that have black belt programs that guarantee you a black belt in 3 years. These are the kings of McDojos. Oh and there are an unGodly amount of other McDojos here too. This is why I am a natural skeptic of a MA dojo when I walk in.
  8. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    Three years is not unrealistic for first degree. Quality is more important.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Five years is standard in 'not bad' generic martial art schools worldwide, Most people train twice a week, grade every 3 to 6 months, with maybe a year in brown belt to blackbelt.

    What's the average in your school?
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
  10. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    From standing- Push their forehead and scoop up their ankles to get them onto their back

    Then work your guard pass from there
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Whilst you can do this..... and by all means try if you want, I wouldnt tell a newbie who says they roll aggressively, to push someones forehead, to flatten posture, that's a guaranteed way to get crush armbared / swept / escalate the roll unless done with control, which it wont be, because hes a aggressive beginner.

    To the OP -
    Lots of people are saying standing passes are the way to go, if its nogi and leg subs are in (your a beginner skipping the basic class If I remember right) thats a sure way to get your legs attacked or get put into advanced guards, which you wont even know the name of, nevermind how to counter them.

    Kneeling passes is the way to go if your new to the art, it stops most new - school guards, and your wrestling background will apply as long as you engage their guard and learn how it works.

    Try both approaches and see which one works out best!
  12. Dunc

    Dunc Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Apologies I missed the suggestion that the OP was too aggressive

    In my experience this works well and is a lot easier than pinning the legs down if they are in a seated guard, but I take your point as you do need control if you're pushing the head - it doesn't need to be much more than a distraction really the flattening bit comes from scooping up the feet

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