Well, just recently attended the seminar by Jinichi Kawakami Sensei and Yasushi Kiyomoto Sensei of the Ban-ke Shinobiden in New Jersey. First day was a discussion panel that had some very impressive guest members such as Meik Skoss: Co-Publisher of Koryu Books, Student of the Late Donn Draeger, Instructor of Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo Shihan (Master) Instructor of Toda-Ha Buko Ryu Naginata Jeremy Sather; Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Pennsylvania Marc Boglioli; Professor of Anthropology, Drew University Wyatt Evans; Professor of History, Drew University With that being said Kakamai Sensei and his lineage of the Ban family associated with Koka and Iga ryu area displayed a film of training in Japan and then received a barrage of questions that were answered really well. One of the questions asked i believe by Dianne Skoss was if the art was a complete transmission or if they had reconstructed it based on actual densho, as they believe Kawakami Sensei to be in possesion of the actual densho. After Kawakami's explanations through a variety of questions and the way in which they were answered the unthinkable happened and Meik Skoss give the official thumbs up to Kawakami Sensei and the lineage and believes it to be real and for the first time ever...truly historical for the art of Ninjutsu. It is an actual transmission by his teacher Ishida Sensei to Kawakami Sensei. As to whether its Koryu or not, Kawakami Sensei gave a unique answer and said, no he did not think so because Ninjutsu is something completely different from the koryu system. Now is it vintage and do they posses the goods? yes they do, but they believe Ninjutsu to be a different animal entirely from Koryu Bujutsu. Kawakami Sensei is very humble and unasuming and only had good things to say about other groups outside of his own also and genuinely only wants to be friends with others who are interested in Ninjutsu, really amazing in this time. It was a really well run event from start to finish and the host was awesome. Just wish there had been more from the Takamatsu-den lineage there to share the info with. The training covered many different aspects of Ninjutsu and was really unique in that only a small part was devoted to bujutsu. In the end it looks like Jinich Kawakami Sensei, Yasushi Kiyomoto Sensei and the Ban Family Ninjutsu of Koka are the real deal and they are here to stay and will be coming back hopefully to the US. It was really great, I have a video below, will try to do more later. Dailymotion - Koka Ryu Seminar - a Sports & Extreme video
Thanks for that. Are there any other videos floating about? If it isn't too much trouble could you give a more in depth write up about the event?
and the answer was?>> Yes, they have the documentation and it is a complete transmission....., that is why I was saying Mr. Skoss was sold on its authenticity, he said everything seemed to fit with what Kawakami Sensei was saying, it is a family art that came out of the coalition of 53 ninja families in the Koka region, the Ban family was one of the leading families to lead this effort. Actually it came through the Ban family to Ishida Sensei's grandfather, the Ban family and the Ishida family are related, hence the transmission from Ishida Sensei to Kawakami Sensei is what they are saying.
That didn't answer his question. Having densho isn't the same as being taught it all to mastery (thus the question of whether it was unbroken transmission versus recent reconstruction). Not saying Mr. Kawakami is in the state of one or the other, but having densho alone isn't an indicator of whether the art is a reconstruction or not. As for the rest, I am duly amazed, especially Mr. Skoss's thumbs-up. What I don't quite get is how he believes ninjutsu to be somehow separate from the koryu system. How can it be "a different animal" from other koryu budo (including those which teach ninjutsu, such as Katori Shinto Ryu and Tatsumi Ryu) if the art existed before the Meiji period? How was the training?
That didn't answer his question. Having densho isn't the same as being taught it all to mastery (thus the question of whether it was unbroken transmission versus recent reconstruction). Not saying Mr. Kawakami is in the state of one or the other, but having densho alone isn't an indicator of whether the art is a reconstruction or not>> They(The panel which included the Skoss contingent) do not believe it be a reconstruction based on him having the densho alone. They believe it is a real lineage and Kawakami was taught the art by his teacher. In the beginning they believed maybe he had the documents but did not know to what extent he had actually been taught. According to him (Kawakami) the documents and history only affirm what he was taught. <<What I don't quite get is how he believes ninjutsu to be somehow separate from the koryu system. How can it be "a different animal" from other koryu budo (including those which teach ninjutsu, such as Katori Shinto Ryu and Tatsumi Ryu) if the art existed before the Meiji period?>> Yes I agree, I was trying to wrap my brain around that one also, but they do view Koryu bujutsu as something different, he kept saying it was an art for living, etc. As far as KSR, I asked him about that very thing and from what I understood, they do not believe it to be Ninjutsu from Iga/Koka and has a limited amount Ninjutsu related techniques in it. I believe they envision Ninjutsu as something much larger, in the Ninjutsu sense, however, there are still alot of questions to be asked obviously for the sake of time they couldn't ask it all even though they were getting drilled right and left. Its not a koryu budo, its families in the areas of Iga and Koka that had skills in areas that were passed down. According to them there never was a Koka ryu or Iga ryu just familes in those areas that used these skills. How was the training?>> Good and kind of strange, for me anyway and thats a great question btw. for me anyway, I love taijutsu, bojutsu, sword, etc like anybody else I suppose. Alot of the training was limited on what they called "yawara" bujutsu mostly from the Shinden Fudo ryu kiho, but did alot of the Ninjutsu training, breathing, conditioning, walking, running, and jumping methods, alot of Kuji, they demonnstrated explosives(they tried to anyway, issues with the chemicals) ended up doing it via a laptop, lots of weapons, shuriken, the rings you saw in the video. That guy Kiyomoto Sensei is pretty similar to a rubber band and is one of the most flexible people I have ever seen, he was htting alot of very low type drops and stances that were pretty cool, hard to execute. All in all though different but good. Now with that being said, I will say that just because I first hand consider them to be the real deal ninjutsu that is not to say I think all of their skills are better than other Japanese we all know and love. It makes me think if people really understood what ninjutsu is would we even be interested in it as opposed to bujutsu. I have to say Hatsumi's taijutsu is smooth as silk and please stay out of Tanemura's way with a sword they completely are head and shoulders above in those things. Like I said its not even about martial arts, according to them (Kawakami) martial arts is only a little piece of Ninjutsu. Oh another thing, another guy that was really sold was Jeremy Sather, Department of East Asian Languages and Cultures, University of Pennsylvania. Jeremy studies with Obata Sensei of Shinkendo and obviously speaks fluent Japanese as well as being a professional academic as a young man, I was really impressed with him. This was a guy who had no interest in Ninjutsu, never believed in it but now does after speaking with Kawakami, so alot of people smarter than I (thats a lot)
This is all neat. My question: If the densho and such weren't actually there to be examined and dated I imagine that the 'seal of approval/authenticity' was given because of the answers to certain questions or because of the movement exhibited. Which was it and what makes those answers indicative of an 'real lineage'? Or is that not what's being implied? I feel like I'm missing something. I would think it would take more than a really good seminar to demonstrate authenticity to a bunch of people used to academically rigorous methods. Or am I missing the boat entirely? Thanks!
I find it strange that someone as outspoken as Skoss so quickly jumped onto the Banke Shinobiden train. Must be Kawakami's Ninja magic. From the videos on display i'm still not really sold. Looking at Kawakami's stuff i still get the ninja image of the 80s in my head (black clad straight swords etc.).
Below is a list of the questions that was answered by Kawakami for the panelists, now be patient though, I didn't write the answers down and am going on memory alone because not all of them interested me. I was mainly interested in hearing more on about his teacher and the connection there. Anyway, I am not an academic, but their approval came about via the fashion in which alot of these questions were answers I suppose in conjunction with their own knowledge of Japanese history and culture I would assume. <<The Questions for Discussion: 1) What IS "ninjutsu"? Is it a discrete martial art, or is it generally part of a larger system, a "sogo bujutsu"? 2) What is a "ninja"? Was there ever a special class or group of people who were identified as ninja? Were they considered to be "hinin" by bushi, or by society at large? Or were they just bushi assigned to specific spying tasks? 3) What sorts of skills and/or discrete arts comprise the curriculum of the art you study? 4) What sort of training does a practitioner of ninjutsu do today? Does that differ from what was done in the past? How? 5) Did ninjutsu ever have a system of licenses or certification (kirigami, mokuroku, menkyo, etc.) that resembles those in other koryu bujutsu? If so, what were/are these levels of licensure/certification? 6) How has your art been transmitted historically? Has there always been a single "soke" or headmaster? Is there one today? Who is he? What's your connection to him? 7) The typical koryu in Japan is more than just a collection of techniques, they are also social entities and important parts of their members identities. Is this also the case with your ninjutsu? 8) What kind of weapons would/did a ninja normally carry? What other kinds of equipment? 9) Perhaps the most common image of a ninja is of a man dressed in a dark costume, with a hood? Is that an accurate image? Were there other kinds of clothing that were commonly worn? If so, what were they? 10) Regarding the dark-colored "ninja costume," what color was it? What kind of cloth was it made from? Did it have special pockets or other special features? 11) Today, there is a sword called a "ninja-to" that is sold as a training weapon. It is shorter, has less curvature than a normal Nihon-to, and has a square tsuba, austensibly to be used as an aid in climbing. Is this modern replica an accurate reproduction of what was historically used by ninja? 12) Is there any reason, other than cultural preservation, for people to study ninjutsu in today's modern world? -Additional Questions from pre-registering attendees: 1. Did ninja wear chain mail under their clothing. Was this chain mail made by the ninja or taken from the bodies of dead samurai? 2. Did ninja develop their own sword forging techniques, or use bought or recovered swords from fallen samurai? 3. Are there any "blocking techniques" similar to what Karate practitioners use in the bujutsu practices associated with Ninjutsu? 4. How were metsubishi made?- Was flour used in their construction? 5. If Ninja did wear a "Shozoku" when would it worn/used? 6. Ninja were reputed to wear soft tabi; Did they? If so, for what purpose/which situation? 7. Do they train in water and if so why?>>
My question: If the densho and such weren't actually there to be examined and dated I imagine that the 'seal of approval/authenticity' was given because of the answers to certain questions or because of the movement exhibited.>> Yeah, its not like there was any radio carbon being done, but I think that he showed enough(on video anyway) enough material that he has donated to the museum so its obvious he is in possesion of those things, but yesits because of the way in which they were answered. <<Which was it and what makes those answers indicative of an 'real lineage'? Or is that not what's being implied?>> I have no idea which one, I think it was a few of them, Meik Skoss would have to elaborate there. <<I feel like I'm missing something. I would think it would take more than a really good seminar to demonstrate authenticity to a bunch of people used to academically rigorous methods.>> Yeah well Meik Skoss was not there for the training he only came to meet and talk to Kawakami, there were alot more talking between the two than just the questions]ns though. Or am I missing the boat entirely? no you are pretty spot on
It may have something to do with the Iga museum. I know what you mean. Don't get me wrong, I'm not on a "this guy sucks" crusade, but what I saw in those youtube vids looked similar to Sho Kosugi. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjFc2weuo4Y"]YouTube - JINICHI KAWAKAMI SOKE[/ame] 0:14 Maybe it's just my lack of experience with Kama, but it seems like he's in danger of being cut by the way that he pushes the sword away. Pay attention to his hips, upper body, the hand control, and the timing of his footwork. From watching it I was honestly expecting Sandstorm to say it was reconstructed. Not that it's better or worse than if he was instructed, it just looks to me like he moves in a very awkward/inexperienced fashion. Also, from someone who has a little experience with compliant demos, with as regularly and as hardcore as Kawakami is purported to train, I would think he would move better for this. We're gonna eat so much **** online now. God damnit.:hat:
yeah about the whole Sho Kosugi thing, I am in complete agreement.........but what if that was closer to the truth than we know. Actually I find it pretty historical. Oh as far as the unarmed combat, like I said I will say that......no those guys can mess you up and they know what they are doing.......is it what many of us are used to? I don't think so. They are stronger than they look, ha, ha. You know they have not shown any unarmed online, I didn't get any because how do you hold a camera and train right? But its there, they resist your technique really well, use fingers and claws and rip your balls of kind of guys.
This is all really interesting. I still feel like I'm missing something. I'm wondering how academics can compare answers without supporting documentation given by someone to see if they conform to what's known about 'real ninjutsu lineages' without having one to compare to? Are they doing this comparison based on the bits of ninjustu in the curriculum of other extant koryu? If so, how do they know without seeing the documentation that this publicly known information is truly contained in an original form in the tradition in question? Are the Skosses members of a koryu that has ninjutsu in the curriculum and therefore privy to non-public details which they can compare this to? Does Shinkendo have ninjutsu in it's curriculum? I guess I'm sorta surprised at some of the questions that were asked by the panel. I'm no academic, but I would have thought that they, save for a few, would be different in 'flavor'. I'm really quite interested in how this sort of research is done and the academically accepted forms of evidence in budo research. It's really quite an interesting field with it's own challenges. Is there video of the event?
I still feel like I'm missing something. I'm wondering how academics can compare answers without supporting documentation given by someone to see if they conform to what's known about 'real ninjutsu lineages' without having one to compare to? Are they doing this comparison based on the bits of ninjustu in the curriculum of other extant koryu? If so, how do they know without seeing the documentation that this publicly known information is truly contained in an original form in the tradition in question? Are the Skosses members of a koryu that has ninjutsu in the curriculum and therefore privy to non-public details which they can compare this to? Does Shinkendo have ninjutsu in it's curriculum? I guess I'm sorta surprised at some of the questions that were asked by the panel. I'm no academic, but I would have thought that they, save for a few, would be different in 'flavor'. I'm really quite interested in how this sort of research is done and the academically accepted forms of evidence in budo research. It's really quite an interesting field with it's own challenges. Is there video of the event>> Yeah, I have no direct answer to all of your questions, that would be more for some of the koryu folks that were there or the Banke Ninjutsu people. I would say this though that this is the first time they came and for many years even in Japan you could not just walk up to Kawakami and meet him, in regards to training his families ninjutsu even for a Japanese person, he has pretty much been a recluse, however this is a coming out of sorts and they are planning in coming back, so I am sure more things will be revealed over the next few years to answer everything. I posted one clip, I am having problems with crashes, trying to get more stuff up though, have some iaijutsu and kenjutsu stuff. There were some people who did not train at all that sit there the whole time recording the entire thing, so I am sure you will see more from others.
Someone asked a question about Takenouchi ryu....No one asked at the seminar, but they gave out some materials that basically stated that the two were unrelated and only had the same name, below was the info we received. Takenouchi Ryu Koroshi Atemi no den ryu founder Takenouchi sukune mainly uses atemi (ko blows) as well as atemi goroshi, shikatsu den in ancient times it was called sumo, kenuchi, tegaeshi, tegoi origins in hand to hand combat and thus like kobudo juujutsu or kenpo doesnt use weapons Kouga Kimura and Takenouchi in Edo period both transmit Founder who reestablished the ryu was Takenouchi Moemon Michinari, originally of the Kimura family, he changed to Takenouchi. This ryu transmitted with Kouga ryu- Okazaki, Kimura, Takenouchi, and Ban family transmission. also a jujutsu ryu of the same name but unrelated still in existence
All that says is that Meik Skoss was convinced that Kawakami learned this stuff under Ishida, it doesnt authenticate anything in the curriculum as being truely ninjutsu, nor does it deny it. I'd prefer to hear more directly from Skoss sensei himself about what he thought. If you compare that to the booj, the authorities that be don't deny Hatsumi trained under Takamatsu, it's just a matter of what he trained in that is in dispute.....
All that says is that Meik Skoss was convinced that Kawakami learned this stuff under Ishida, it doesnt authenticate anything in the curriculum as being truely ninjutsu, nor does it deny it. I'd prefer to hear more directly from Skoss sensei himself about what he thought.>> Right, well I asked Skoss point blank and he seems to think Kawakami is legit in regards to Ninjutsu from what I understood him to say. There is really so many ways you can tap dance around all this to avoid the reality of it I guess. One thing of importance also was that it was reported that Masao Ishida was according to Kawakami a spy used by the Japanese government against Russia in ww2. Ishida's teacher was supposedly his grandfather from the Ishida family that was related to Ban family and was instrumental in the coalition of the ninja families in preserving the arts from the area as they had went earlier to the shogunate for financial help but they could do nothing as they were soon to fall. Is it real Ninjutsu, I would say so, is it great bujutsu well you would have to make your own decision on that I guess
