Bagua Animal Forms

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Tai Sabaki, Nov 18, 2009.

  1. Tai Sabaki

    Tai Sabaki Valued Member

    Can any one tell me whether Sun Lu Tang invented these and if so then from what previous Bagua and other martial/healing knowledge as i've read articles by Erle Montaigue who says these are the original forms, just hope someone can help me with their history or point me in the right direction.


  2. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Sun Lutang learnt Bagua from Cheng Tinghua.

    Research Cheng style Bagua.
  3. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    [ame=""]YouTube- Baguazhang Dragon Form: Montaigue[/ame]
    G'Day Dan Bian, Heres my absolute favourite Cheng Bagua vid. Thanks again for your help with Bagua.
    Cheers mate

    [ame=""]YouTube- Cheng bagua 8 major palms[/ame]
  4. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    Erle has some interesting, and perhaps unique, theories on the origins of Ba Gua. This is the first time I've heard that the animal forms comprise "original" Ba Gua, but the art's origins are vague enough that a lot of people get (and have gotten) away with making stuff up.

  5. embra

    embra Valued Member

    This presents a good argument as to why lineage can be important i.e. to understand and accept the teaching presented, it is beneficial to have some landmark references up front; and that corruption, varying interpretations, commercialisation, perceptions and counter-perceptions regarding the Nejia arts of China proliferate in our world, as manifest in the many somewhat contentious threads on this forum.

    I will shortly be returning to the UK from France (Strasbourg), where I am working, and did manage to sneak in a couple of Baguazhang classes into a very tight schedule; which for me was more or less a taster and no more.

    During the classes numerous circular evasive applications and movements (snake, dragon - animal forms?) were executed. I asked the Sifu about the size of the circles which seemed sometimes excessive to me, and received the explanation that with experience, the circular movements become vanishingly small - which is part of what some experienced Aikidoka (> 20 years )talk of with regard to circular movements in relation to Taisabaki evasion and general countering strategy.

    Anyone familiar with Aikido's Taisabaki evasion, may well recognise the value and interest of Baguazhang's manifest evasion.
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2009
  6. Tai Sabaki

    Tai Sabaki Valued Member

    Thanks guys! When i watch people on Youtube performing Bagua, some stand out from the others. The guy performing the Cheng palms is really rapid and doesn't look like no spring chicken either, all credit to him. Fantastic. Erle doesn't look as smooth or flowing as some but his applications and pragmatic approach are excellent and 2nd to none i've seen.


  7. East Winds

    East Winds Valued Member

    Wasn't aware that the "Bagua classics" even mentioned trousers!!!!!! Ah well, we live and learn. Of the two clips, I know which one I prefer and which one was closer to what I was taught!!!!!

    Vwery best wishes
  8. old palden

    old palden Valued Member

    I wasn't even aware of the existence of "Bagua classics", let alone their alleged mention of trousers.

    According to my teacher, Taoist circle walking practices and the single palm change were practiced for centuries before Dong Hai Chuan popularized Ba Gua as a martial art.

    Embra: Interesting you would link Aikido and Bagua, I have some exposure to both styles and have often thought that they shared many common elements in both technique and principles.

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  9. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    From E.Montaigue's Bagua World website..
    "studying the internal martial/healing systems of China since 1967. His Baguazhang study began in 1974 with Chu King-hung in London and then in 1981 with Grandmaster Ho Ho-choy in Hong Kong".

    Heres a "different" version. (however,its only a linking set)

    [ame=""]YouTube- Eight Animals School BaKuaZhang (1 of 2)[/ame]

    You know, i could put 69% of you-tube on here so we can pick at their Bagua, but then they might have awesome lineage....... LOL, see lineage is in most cases totally useless.
    HakkeShou (japanese) or Baguazhang is the Art of Overkill, Personally i dont entertain any versions other than E.Montaigue, Dragongate Sanctuary-Longmenpai, and the Cheng strain shown here above prev post.

    Heres footage of Longmenpai (name of you-tube channel)

    [ame=""]YouTube- 1998 Demo Wudang Bagua Lake palm 'simple' applications[/ame]

    Personally i think E.Montaigue and Dragongate Sanctuary-Longmenpai to be the best versions around.
    Even Cheng Baguazhang has many versions.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  10. Tai Sabaki

    Tai Sabaki Valued Member

    I agree with you on the dragon gate sanctury stuff, look very fluid and applications i've seen are awsome and shown really well. Does he do all eight animal forms like Erle, I know he does a snake form although not the same as Erles, are Erles the same as Sun Lu Tangs animal forms?
  11. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    @old palden, Howdy, yeah i mentioned that when i first joined MAP (the Aikido thing)
    and got a bit of lip from it :)... Doesnt take anything away from or add anything to Aikido in either case, becouse its the man (Ueshiba sensei) not just the Art after all :).
  12. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    howdy spg,
    About Longmenpai, as you say he has Tibetan snake boxing etc amongst other specialties.
    The Bagua is water dragon method. . Heres Longmenpai.

    [ame=""]YouTube- Dragon Gate Sanctuary Wudang Bagua Palm Changes (slow)[/ame]

    ps; turn it up loud
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  13. Tai Sabaki

    Tai Sabaki Valued Member

    Thanks for all the replies but does any one know if the animal forms Erle teaches are the one fro Sun Lu Tang
  14. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    Sun Lu Tang (born Sun Fu Quan)
    1916 - the study of Bagua Boxing is published. (began learning Dragon style Pakua late 1800's from Cheng T'ing hua). Interestingly his book refers to the classics etc. The name Sun Lu Tang was given him by Cheng T'ing Hua in 1894.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
  15. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    1978 E.Montaigue trained with Chiang Yiu-chun
    1981 in Hong Kong trained with Yang Sau-chung (son of Yang Cheng-Fu) and Ho Ho-Choy, Had also spent time training with FuZhongWen, Shao Shan-kan..
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
  16. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    If you are refering to this egsample then no.

    [ame=""]YouTube- Sun Style Bagua Quan[/ame]

    Erle refers to "Chi awakening forms" being learnt first before the full animal forms. Perhaps the "chi awakening forms" are the 8 animal linking forms, and the full 8 animal forms are what Erle demonstrates.
    As for who invented them, that would have to be Tung Hai-Chuan..

    Ckeck out "BanjoBilly" channel on you-tube. There you will find Tung Hai-Chuan's origional form Bagua shown slowly in 2 parts.
    Next to those vids are the 8 animal linking set vids in 2 parts.

    To be honest, the sun bagua vid shown here looks like a mash of both. That is, origional circle form mixed with 8 animal linking form..

    Erle shows the Full 8 animal forms (not linking or shortened form) And also ofcourse, the origional circle form of Tung Hai-Chuan.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
  17. Tai Sabaki

    Tai Sabaki Valued Member

    Thanks again

    Cheers for your answers, some interesting answers to an extremly interesting martial art.
  18. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    Hi spg,
    This could be what your after, through "Sun Jian Yun Dragon Bagua" Eight animal forms of Lion unicorn snake hawk dragon bear pheonix monkey. Thats them by the sounds of it. Can be found through Wing Lam kung fu for that (Sun) style i believe.

    At this stage i could not tell you if they were practiced exactly the same or not. .
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  19. Tai Sabaki

    Tai Sabaki Valued Member

    Thanks Griffin,
    I'll check that out asap. Whats your personal view on the animal forms?
    They look good, i particulary like the unicorn form or what i've seen of it anyway. On average how long are the forms, about the same as Jiangs original form, as currently this is the only one i know and can compare with.
  20. Griffin

    Griffin Valued Member

    Mmm, hard to say if same. animal forms usually 8 sections within each form. But some sources may exspress one area and another not so much so slight differences can creep in over time. The Unicorn form shown on you-tube by Erle has prob 2 or so sections shown out of prob 8 sections. Yes i like it also, quite deadly this Bagua :)

    The 8 animal forms (moontagu you-tube) were my first veiwing of Bagua (E.Montaigue) Even before I had seen the palm changes.
    I practice karate-do, however ive been on an injury turned extended break for 18 months or so lol and during this time i discovered and have trained Baguazhang.
    So by choice i only trained Montaigue 8 animal method. Then took on basic single/double palm change from a cheng bagua source.
    Shortly after that i decided to only train the origional palm changes of Tung Hai-Chuan and 8 animals E.Montaigue method.
    Longmenpai on you-tube is also valuable baguazhang resource. Dragongate sanctuary has a website also very interesting. Very much worth a look also.

    Getting back to the 8 animals, look at the start of the snake form by Erle. Circle walk then pivot to face centre thrust right palm then left No3 palm etc
    Yet, take the same form with someone else doing it (like the Wing Lam Sun style source) and very possibly it could be same, Or, they may have concentrated on diff areas. So they may continue turning and the 3 thrusting palms now might not be concentrated on as much. They might turn quicker with little emphasis of them but still there.... Know what i mean lol.
    Im interested to see what they (Sun style 8 animals) look like now also.

    Yeah, like the part in unicorn where the arms are twisted to expose the neck/jaw and full bodied BAM turning elbow etc.

    [ame=""]YouTube- Bagua Unicorn Boxing: Montaigue[/ame]
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009

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