Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Silv, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member

    There's no smoking gun yet, for anybody.


    I'm adding 2 cents. Simply to provide background - not, really to argue about who's right. Please, I'm not.

    I would explain The statements on the Banke Shinobinoden Kensyujo website by simply saying that they are quite proud of the level of legitimate acceptance they've been able to achieve. The "no representatives" statements, I've explained in other threads.

    Look; I LIKE and admire Mr. Kawakami and I think well of his student Kiyomoto. I've heard, at length, the description of how Kawakami met Ishida. He's friendly and matter of fact about it. BTW, at the end of his statements in our panel discussion, he unequivocally stated that he had no desire to disparage anybody else's martial practice.

    And he was sincere.

    Kawakami is an utter stickler for historical accuracy. Kiyomoto serves Kawakami so totally that he becomes a bit difficult, at times. I think that the utter focus on historical accuracy might not be primarily attractive to those who simply want to practice martial arts.

    I'm addressing some of the issues with numbered answers - that's not to categorically show how authoritative I am, but rather because there's so much to address. I'm just trying to keep it straight.

    1. Kawakami does have RELATIVELY more recognition in Japan at this time, BUT to be fair, Mie (Iga) and Shiga (Koka) prefectural recognition isn't national recognition. Kawakami isn't a "Living Cultural Treasure". He isn't in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten (which has not been revised or updated for 30 years and newly discovered and evaluated densho DO appear-though rarely), but he does have scrolls which have been accepted by the Iga Museum (which is government sponsored, hence takes its duties seriously and has Cred), but no statement has been made about them by the Koryu Bujutsu Kyokai or the Koryu Bujutsu Shinkokai.

    2. Kawakami stated that the "Shinden Fudo" martial practices he does and those of the Bujinkan dakentaijutsu/jutaijutsu are similar in name - not the same systems. I have no way to evaluate this statement, nor did I suspect anything of it.

    3. Kawakami is late middle-aged, quiet, reclusive, RETIRED (which is the really mundane reason why he doesn't take students; his student Kiyomoto does) and he's been around a lot longer than many think. There was even a special of the TV specials..Discovery Channel, I think, where a show which centered around the Bujinkan, began with a tour of the Iga Museum. Who was Giving that tour? Kawakami :) He was never mentioned. He was already an honorary curator. What he wasn't, was someone who wanted to expand his student base.

    Kawakami isn't really a mysterious figure; he just really couldn't be bothered with things outside of his focus on historical Ninjutsu. He has expressed his wishes really only to be involved in academic style activities with concern to Ninjutsu. Kiyomoto has a school to "spread" (heck; legitimately so, as with anyone who teaches martial arts, et al, he believes in); the Banke Shinobinoden. He is so fanatically loyal to his teacher's desire for grounded historicity that he is careful not to teach actual Ninjutsu to anyone who hasn't been in the Ryuha for 10 years. Then there is a blood-oath, much like Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu. One *****s one's finger next to one's signature, as a sign of commitment to "keep things in the Family".

    4. The Now famous statement "Ninjutsu isn't Bujutsu" came from Kawakami before Mr. Cummins said it on Youtube. Nor, Mr. Kawakami said, point blank, in response to Meik Skoss' question, is Ninjutsu (the way he finds it) a Koryu. NOT A KORYU (IMHO, HOW WONDERFUL). According to Kawakami, Shinobi were Bushi already; they learned Bujutsu skills and were taught Ninjutsu on along with/top of them. In Kawakami's view, Ninjutsu is large, living and very adaptive. It really shouldn't be limited only to the repetition of a static syllabus of preserved techniques.

    And yes; Mr. Kiyomoto's fanatical devotion to utter historical accuracy does seem at odds with that. A counterpoint would be if Fujita Seiko's instruction at the Nakano Intelligence School helped produce "Showa Era Shinobi" you can bet they used every modern method of espionage.

    5. According To Kawakami, Shinobi were Samurai. HOWEVER - in extended discussion, it was further explained that "The Government/Shogunate/Bakufu may have disagreed that they were Samurai". Hmm...they were Ji-Samurai, i.e., warriors during the Sengoku Jidai (Warring States Period), before the classes were stratified tightly. This opens the door again to the "Robin of Locksley" image, at least for Koka area Shinobi - that they were former Samurai families which were in some way "outlawed".

    That, of course re-opens the question as to whether or not they were samurai....

    6. Ishida wasn't that well known. Sorry. (look; Takamatsu wasn't as stunningly famous as people seem to think. Fujita Seiko was the "Phenom" to be envied) BUT Kawakami has given give a complete lineagle - I'm still trying to get the whole transcript translated.

    7. A lot has been made of some of the publicly displayed Bujutsu techniques Mr. Kawakami and Mr. Kiyomoto displayed at the Drew U. Seminar. My own view as that they displayed a good amount of well-performed, interesting stuff that centered around actual Ninjutsu as they saw it; silent walking, ways of hiding/infilitration/escape-evasion, confusing their body-outlines by quickly producing and dropping underneathdark linen cloth (impressive). Some of it I couldn't see, ironically; Kiyomoto kept me running with surprise requests. The Bujutsu proper looked like they hadn't practiced it together for some time. It wasn't s bad as it was "shakily not recently rehearsed". To be fair I've seen the same level from X-Kans, et cetera. I've also seen/participated in excellent X-kan practice. I have to thank Mr. Muramatsu (Myo-Fu An), especially for such an opportunity; I didn't know how big it was.

    8. Look, please, it is so that most Japanese scholars believe, without certainty that NO Ninjutsu Lineage has survived, though they allow for the possibility. That they politely "allow for the possibility", especially in the Japanese cultural context means that they generally haven't accepted the Takamatsuden and possibly even the Banke Shinobinoden, though the Banke folks have presented a University Symposium in Japan, other than the less formal one at Drew U.

    9. It is so that IN ANY MARTIAL PRACTICE - people can come and go from Japan and encounter wildly different experiences. Koryu people are often the worst; some seem to live in an "alternate Japan" for years on end. My wife, Miyako and I will go to Japan, visit Kono Yoshinori, The Japan Sambo Federation HQ in Shibuya, visit a Fencing Master in the same district who gives his lessons entirely in French, occasionally train with teachers of Budo (I still love and do Judo - but not in Japan, oddly; there's so much to do that I can't do at home), Bujutsu and occasionally Chinese Martial Arts (I-Chuan mostly, called Kanshi I-Ken" in Japan. My wife does this a bit). Then we'll talk with people who've gone there, even lived there and really mostly experienced the training in their particular area or of their charismatic instructor(s). We've come to actually look at each other and say "What Japan did they live in???". It is true that Bujinkan isn't widely regarded in Japan, even though Hatsumi's videos are for sale in Kinokuniya. It is true that the Bujinkan seems to be mostly gai-goku-jin, not Nihon-jin and is known for this. IS THAT TERRIBLE? I've seen the TV shows in which Hatsumi participated - y'know? It's nice to see that at least somebody in the martial arts can be tongue-in-cheek about himself. The line between dignity and pomposity is fine and easily crossed especially by Martial Arts Masters. Hatsumi presents a wonderful counter-point example to those who would "drink the Kool-Aid" in his name.

    10. Mr. Kawakami, in his home country, is seen as historically more "hardcore" than Mr. Hatsumi (which is not to say he's looked upon as "normal" either), but both are still open to the observation (cum accusation) that they are more historical re-enactors than they are actual lineage holders. My personal take is; practice what you practice. If it's research not lineage, it would be best (simplest at least) just to say so; if you're GOOD, the World is now sophisticated enough to perceive that. IMHO. The world is both bigger and smaller than it was; walking down a Tokyo street one can find signs for Taekwondo (very popular! Japanese have taken World Gold Medals), BJJ and "No-Gi MMA" (In English). Being legitimate in one's lineage really isn't a guarantee that one is very good at what one does.

    Wishing you all well!
  2. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    The Bujinkan has always been targeted at foreigners and has always marketed itself as an international organisation rather than a Japanese organisation.

    The ultimate fact of the matter is, nobody in Japan or Internationally gives a crap about ninjutsu, koryu or martial arts (except Judo, Shorinji Kenpo, Sumo and Kendo). So really, arguing Kawakami has more recognition is a joke.

    Japanese, even more so than foreigners, are less knowledgeable about their warrior heritage.
  3. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Excellent post and very interesting.

    Can you explain a little bit more about what you mean by "an alternate Japan?"
  4. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member

    Full of hopefully entertaining digressions...


    Ace; great explanation. If that's the thrust of the Bujinkan, people ought to hear it more. It is puzzling to someone who's never heard what you've just written - Japanese or Foreign, to experience japanese BJK training.

    You're right about the Japanese people and martial arts; either you're an enthusiast or you generally don't care. I would add Nippon Kenpo (and thereby Toshu Kakuto/Taihojutsu, they're largely the same in practice) to the list, but only in a tangential way.

    That's a partial answer already for SPX (Hi, also :) Foreigners visiting Japan often get the idea that martial arts are higher profile than they are. Some "go native" (hey; arguably me); some "go native" in a way "the natives" haven't gone for 500 years. Some view martial arts through the periscope their martial art, style, or teacher ( Good lord; "shihan"; Hanshi; Soke; Kai-Cho; Sosai; Kan-Cho; et cetera - it's a "secret handshake" some foreigners don't get that it's unusual - Mr. Kawakami's correct title took me a while, until I realized Kiyomoto was obsessing over a word about which Kawakami didn't CARE) explains to them.

    There are a LOT of misconceptions people get; Karate styles that are "going to replace the WKF and get into the Olympics"; the relative "toughness" of their training (which might be not so tough/effective or actually be abusive, rather than "tough" - some Aikido schools are particularly guilty of this; training at some University Judo or Karate programs are both "tough" AND abusive).

    Japanese Koryu practitioners tend to view things in very traditional ways. It sort of makes sense. Their foreign students sometimes (no where near all; not everyone) adopt such attitudes. They become "more Japanese than the Japanese" (that's a very well-worn saying, isn't it:-) I still have a hard time pointing at people; gives me the "willies" to have to point at someone's face...but I will, here in new Jersey; I wouldn't think of sticking my hashi upright in a bowl of rice, but I wouldn't freak out over Japanese people being so stupidly literal that they'd get upset about my making an offering to the dead; I "get" bowing - I don't obsess about how high or low; I won't walk over someone's weapons/katana - but I've known modern Japanese Journalists to make that mistake and I've watched Koryu teachers grit their teeth and put up with it; I've seen the occasional kohai tell the occasionsl, utterly overbearing Sempai to "**** off" - there are limits, even in Japan.

    Think about it; if that last never happened, why are there so many styles of Bujutsu and Budo?

    The "secrets thing"; there is no universal council of Japanese masters that goes to China and consults Chinese masters to plumb the depths of their superior ancient secrets. Much of the Classic (not Koryu) Budo (not Bujutsu) that purports to have been "learned in China" was developed in Manchukuo by Japanese people living there, during the Showa era. They kept saying "China' because Manchukuo was somewhat of a national embarrassment.

    There are increasing numbers of 6' tall, skinny, light skinned, wiry-muscular, tattooed young men you can spot at Narita. They are there to and will see Japan as simply an experience of MMA and Roppongi.

    Lastly, my favorite; there's a surprisingly common cult-like belief in Japan; it's got some things in common with the "Reiki" movement. It is favored by a number of martial arts teachers. Not that many, but you can immediately tell when a "foreigner" has practiced with one of them. The belief system is characterized by the idea that energy (usually healing energy) can be transmitted by intent, and near contact. Telepathy can be developed through training in that particular system; specially taught creative visualization will manifest your desires; the Japanese people are special because they are direct descendants of the lost continent - Atlantis, lemuria, Mu, take your pick.

    I'm not denying the existence of telepathic contact or the relative effectiveness of creative visualization. Too many scientists are actually doing serious research into expectations actually influencing outcomes. Still the cult-like phenomenon is real....

    It's really a product, I guess of the old "wherever you go, there you are". When you go someplace, you end up doing the things most important to you and taking in the things you most want to see. You go; you biases and wishfulness go with you.

    An analogy; there are a number of Wild West re-enactors in Europe and Japan. I am given to understand there are medieval European re-enactors in Japan. Sounds like a whole lot of fun, an entre' to cultural history and an excuse to get really carried away. To someone of American/ European descent it can be jarring in a way somewhat like the "Korean-Scottish Starburst" Candu commercial on American TV. You can even be lectured about your own history, that you don't know. A German Wild West Re-enactor once sagely remarked to an An American Journalist "you know, they never said "Sie riden da lang". What?...oh geez...
    "They went that-a-way"....

    In the end, it's a "Blind men and the elephant" thing. I have to think to myself, other than the "outliers" who's to say who's right?
  5. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member


    I did not first encounter the "Descendants of Atlantis" beliefs through Ninjutsu practitioners. Actually it was through contacts with particular Karate men whose systems (sigh) originated in "China" (Manchukuo, in fact, on the shoulders of the Southern Manchurian Railway).
  6. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    First off, I would love to see one of these re-enactments. That sounds like a riot. With that said, it's true that often foreign cultures know more about another culture than the natives do. I could see a Japanese enthusiast knowing more about the Wild West than many Americans, just like I could see Americans knowing more about Karate than many Japanese.

    I will also say that I understand what you mean by the romanticization of martial arts and Asia in general. I remember when I was a kid that I was just fascinated by ANYTHING Asian. ALL martial arts were awesome, I never questioned the things I read about their histories, and even going to a Chinese restaurant down the street in Memphis, TN was just an overwhelming experience.

    Oddly enough, many adults never really grow out of this. I guess they're not the cynic and skeptic that I've come to be, but it still seems odd. I talked to a guy just the other day who's learning Stephen Hayes' To-Shin Do via DVDs and, when I cautioned him to be careful and understand there are many different approaches to fighting and some may be more practical than others, he lectured me on how TSD is built upon "1200 years of ancient knowledge."

    Now that's not to disparage Hayes or his system at all. I'm sure you know what I'm getting at.

    Anyway, thanks for the post. Very interesting stuff.
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2010
  7. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    It's such a shame that people have to be so insecure about their chosen form of MA training. Yeah it's 1200 years of ancient knowledge that he's "learning" from a video series. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Actually it's more like:

    It's Hayes' take on 1200, alleged, years of ancient knowledge...that he's learning from a video series.. :eek:

  9. komuso

    komuso Valued Member

    Hi all,

    what a fantastic series of posts DaynD. Probably the most even handed summation of the issues of 'legitimacy' that I have ever read.

    I would also say that the practice in some Japanese arts of sending instructors abroad, with a view towards expanding the art to the west may have contributed to some of the issues that you are talking about. It can cause what I would call the 'ex-pat factor', where someone who becomes a kind of default cultural ambassador becomes progressively more like a stereotyped version of that culture over time. I have met more than a few Australian's overseas that come across like a kind of wierd combination of Crocodile Dundee and Steve Irwin, when almost nobody sounds or acts like that in a domestic context.

    A bit more of the 'more Japanese than the Japanese, thing, but in this case it might be Japanese (or any other) people themselves.

  10. Valued Member

    Thank you for a thoughtful and eloquent reply DaynD. Much of this community is actually very well aware that Hatsumi is an obscure figure in Japan.
  11. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member

    Perhaps some further reading..more digressions and a request

    Probably the most interesting books which showcase the esoteric Japanese history and it's associated mystical beliefs are;

    Dojo by Winston Davis (Stanford University Press, 1980)

    -This is an overview of "Sukyo Mahikari"; the sects which believe those things I described just before. It is written in a very accessible, interesting style. This is an outsider's point of view, with all the associated"pluses" and "minuses". I have never heard a martial arts instructor refer to such arcane beliefs as "Sukyo Mahikari", but those who have encountered such obviously extremely similar Budo/Bujutsu belief systems, particularly in Karate-Do, Ninjutsu, et al, will find the description STRIKING.

    For a rare, "Inside" View, which in no way involves Ninjutsu;

    Essential Shorinji Ryu Karatedo by Masayuki Hisataka (Charles Tuttle, 1994)

    - This is a Karate text, which outlines the Sukyo Mahikari -style beliefs held by the author, as a statement of actual history. It includes unusual viewpoints on the timelines and biographies of Judeo-Christian Biblical figures.

    BTW: Shorinji Ryu Kenkokan Karatedo was developed by the author's Father, Masayoshi (A.K.A., "Kori") Hisataka. The elder Hisataka was a Stationmaster on the "mantetsu" or Southern Manchurian Railway (SMR). He practiced and taught along with Minoru Mochizuki. He claimed to have been one of Doshin So's teachers.

    Kori Hisataka returned to Japan and, post-war, began teaching "Shorinji Kempo". My Judo teacher Mamoru Shimamoto and his college dohai Yoshisada Yonezuka (several time US Olympic Judo Coach) studied Kempo from him. Doshin So taught his own "take" on Shorinji Kempo (the two have similarities) So eventually sued Hisataka for the right to use the title "Shorinji Kempo". Thus, the name was changed to reflect Kori Hisataka's Okinawan roots, to "Shorinji Kenkokan Karatedo".

    Anyhow, there is some evidence that Kori Hisatka acted in a minor intelligence gathering capacity (he was NOT in any way a shinobi:bang:).

    That would put Hisataka in company with other Japanese luminaries who, while in Manchukuo, seem to have engaged in the same sort of endeavors; Morihei Uyeshiba, Seiko Fujita, Gogen Yamaguchi (an Intelligence Captain; one of his informants was the man who founded the first proto-Taekwondo Kwan, which was referred to as the "Kwon Bop Bu" of a Korean Judo School), Takamatsu Toshitsugu (the "Mongolia" referred to was the Inner Mongolian disputed border area of Manchukuo), Kenji Tomiki (as a companion to Uyeshiba), Kenichi Sawai and others. All of these martial arts greats seem to have ben involved in the massive, grass-roots intelligence effort sonsored by the Japanese government and expressed more directlly through the SMR, Kwantung Army and the Kokuryukai.

    This was in Manchuria/Manchukuo. My personal research shows me that Manchuria never really was "Chinese" until after the Russo-Japanese war! The Manchus (really "Jurchen"; the same parent group as Koreans...and possibly...the original "Wa" Japanese) forbade Chinese to live in Manchuria. Then the Russian Empire took hold of Manchuria as it'd farthest-flung Siberian possession. Only after Japan took hold did thousands of Ethnic Chinese migrate into what is now one of the 5 stars on the Chinese flag. So, when You hear "while in China" or "while in Mongolia" while someone refers to a Showa-era (circa WWII) martial arts great or espionage operative, it must be viewed through the lens of the history of the time.

    My mother-in-law was born and partially raised in "Dairen" - founded as "Dalny" by the Russians, now called "Dalian" by the Chinese. She expressed that the average immigrant to Manchukuo really wanted to live alongside the Russians, Manchurians, Chinese and Mongolians who also lived there. The Kwantung Army, apparently, had different ideas. She will still occasionally want to drink black tea from a glass, with lemon.

    IMPORTANT POINT; having been some way involved with intelligence is in no way an indication that any specific person was a shinobi; only a very few have claimed that and my recitation of names does NOT mean I'm saying they were connected to Ninjutsu - except for the obvious individuals, whose names you well know.

    I haven't got the foggiest idea where Ishida fits in all this as a special operations/special forces soldier. It would be really illuminating to find out if he was recorded as having trained at the Nakano Imperial Army Intelligence school (which apparently laid-off Uyeshiba and replaced him with Fujita; you can safely bet I had my wife read that to me twice and then checked my hearing). What complicates things, of course, is that the Nakano School was a school for Officers. Training for enlisted personnel would have been a different affair.

    Still, "Intelligence" isn't Spec-Ops; MI-5 isn't SAS; CIA isn't SOG; GRU isn't Spetsnaz. They recruit, one from the other, respectively...but they're not the same.

    :topic: It's really funny when I hear that Ninja weren't primarily assassins and that they were more like spies - with James Bond as an example. James Bond, within the parameters of his story-line, was an assassin who had been given investigative powers and wide license for discretion, not the reverse. I love th books though :cool:

    So; Silv....or anybody; can we be enlightened about this? Mr. Kawakami actually remarked there was a list of Nakano graduates somewhere.

    BTW - I have the evidence of my senses that, in at least some part, Banke Shinobinoden participates in activities which correspond to "Sukyo Mahikari" beliefs. This is similar to impressions I've gotten from some X-Kan practitioners. some cases, more than "impressions' and more than "similar"...

    I'd really LOVE to hear about these things from someone who knows!
  12. poryu

    poryu Valued Member


    whats does not help is old rumours started within the Bujinkan like this one surfacing once in a while.

    They were not lost in WW2 fires, ask the Kuki family they will tell you this.
  13. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member

    A bit more - just a bit

    i looked up "Sukyo Mahikari" and found that it has spread world-wide, in it's seminal form. It is related to 世界救世教 Sekai Kyūsei Kyō, one of the Japanese "new religions".

    I would be fascinated to hear about it's congruence, if any to Amatsu Tatara. Amulets are, apparently, an essential part of Sukyo Mahikari, et al.
  14. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    Seems there is a discrepancy in regards to Takamatsu Sensei's role within the Kukishin Ryu between the stories of the Kuki family and the X-Kans. Check out this article written by Tanemura Sensei of the Genbukan that also talks about MOST(not all) of the documents being lost in firebombings. Tanemura Sensei seems to maintain a good relationship with the Kuki family also.
  15. Fudo-shin

    Fudo-shin Valued Member

    Hey Dayne:hat:

    Many also believe the connection to be via Yonaguni to Atlantsi/Mu/Lemuria

    [ame=""]YouTube- Japanese Atlantis - Japan[/ame]
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Really good replies DaynD! Welcome to MAP. A fair part of my university studies have primarily focused around Japanese religions so I have a lot of resources on the Japanese New (and New New) Religious Movements. I'd recommend having a look through some of the articles on the Japanese Journal of Religious Studies which has its entire back issues available free online. That's usually a good place to start when looking for good research on Japanese religions.
  17. jameswhelan

    jameswhelan Valued Member

    Hello again Prof DeRose,

    What excellent contributions (please post here more!). Are you a member of Mr Kiyomoto's training group? Do you visit Japan for training?
  18. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member




    I had never seen some of that and what I hadn't seen was really telling; it may well be that the foreign researchers who maintain that Yonaguni is likely a natural formation have western style buildings in the back of their minds. Once I saw the Old Okinawan "castle" structures, I looked at the underwater structures with a completely different eye.

    Of course, there would have to be a long chain sporting strong links to start from these fascinating (alleged) ruins and end with martial systems, etc., tracing a lineage back to a lost, "sun-source" civilization.

    - What I mean by this are the claims I've actually heard that Kuki family martial arts are that old and of that lineage. BTW - not from anyone who has anything to do with MAP, as far as I can tell. These were verbal statements.

    I am reminded of several "cross-cultural" similarities;

    -Native American groups who claim "We didn't migrate here across the Bering Strait, we were ALWAYS here". Japanese people who believe that the undersea ruins are the original Japanese culture are (to my mind) harkening back to the Shinto foundation myths. One has to be cautious about finding things, research-wise, that one wants to find.

    - Parallels, which may be entirely fictional, connecting Europe's great "Island Empire", Great Britain, to Atlantis, via additions to the myths of King Arthur. It may be that "linkage" of this sort is almost irresistable.

    - Plato's description of Atlantis was of a nation which was very advanced, both as a civilization and particularly in the arts of war - but only by "indication" and on a strategic/tactical scale; i.e., how successful they were and how very much they threatened the Greeks. A fascinating legend has to have "teeth"; mystery stories are almost required to feature murders, etc.; it might not be enough to simply state that an ancient civilization was "there". "Great", in history, generally is spelt "Great Kingdom" or "Great Empire".

    - (I add this without religious value judgement, PLEASE) the Book of Mormon really describes the rise and fall of 3 principal, advanced, Pre-Columbian Civilizatiions in the US. As it turns out, there were, including the Anasazi, and the Northern & Southern Mound-Builders, at least 3. Still, this, in and of itself, does not factually validate (nor argue against) the rest of the statements made in the Book of Mormon. Scholars research and debate about this.

    In this last, I am referring to difficulties in analysis and not making any judgement about the validity of dearly held, honest beliefs!

    Though I'm being cautious, I do have to admit, I'm childishly fascinated by this stuff.
  19. DaynD

    DaynD Valued Member

    Arigato Gozaimasu

    i am..moved; I mean it; what can I say?

    Mr. Whelan, I'm not a professor at Drew (I was an adjunct once), I'm the Head Fencing Coach. There are distinct problems with coaching young people who are then impetuous enough to take a class you teach. I would, if need be, kill for the Drew Fencing Alumni/ae. My duties lay there - however foolishly.

    I do visit Japan; I'd love to train and do to increase my acquaintance with Martial Arts.

    I am not a member of Banke Shinobinoden; I have stated that I am their firm friend.

    Don't encourage me too much; just as with anyone who "talks for a living" :)
  20. jameswhelan

    jameswhelan Valued Member

    Thanks for that. I quite agree with you regarding "linkages", and would add that critical faculties, or lack of, contribute to this too. By that I mean, a critaclly minded reader will come away from Timaeus and Critias pondering the folly of Utopianism and the nature of corruption. The uncritical reader will be wondering how best he can get hold of a submarine.
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2010

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