attacks in aikido ?

Hello.

I know, you"ll tell me that O-sensei designed aikido as defensive MA. Despite this. My question will be very simple. At advance level (1dan and up), can aikido offer offensive tools. I dont mean that aikidoka "makes" the uke to attack first, and then attacks uke by manipulating uke's attack. I mean that Aikidoka himself actually begins the attacking move.
(Again, I'm talking here about aikido at advance level).

ARIGATO

 

I'm sorry, those japanese names tell me nothing. I'm a total noob in aikido. Tomorow is my first aikido training
(But I'm not a noob in MA, I have 5 years of kickboxing)

 

So sorry, I have another question that is very disturbing me

I see that in my Aikikai entire tuesday training is weapons training.
What is weapons training in aikido ? It has something to do with Kendo, Iaido, or Bojutsu , or is it something else ?

 

ANY conflict which is about to become physical as apposed to bravado or verbal, must be controlled very carefully to ensure advantage. Waiting for an individual to make "the first move" (physically speaking) isn't tactically sound.

One must make a clear decision, at what point does the verbal "push you, push me" situation become liable to escalation? The answer for me is... at the point where I feel the person in front of me cannot be reasoned with through dialogue; once I have assured myself of this, I will take the matter and escalate it myself so that I have control (proactive) rather than wait for them (reactive).

Obviously there is a difference in law... (granted we are at opposite ends of the pond but the principle applies)... between us having a tactical advantage because we 'start' the fight, and remaining within the realm of the laws of the land however, in exactly the same comparison, there is a very big difference between being in control (because we have initiated) and possibly being seriously injured by intentionally waiting for an attack to 'deal' with.

I don't believe for one minute that we are supposed to 'wait' to be attacked. To me that notion is ridiculous. Yes we very often train in a reactive manor however; and if my memory is correct (Iwama students please correct me) Iwama Ryu initiates technique by making atemi, when uke responds to protect, a technique is applied on them.

Regards

Dave

 

Aikido is heavily influanced by classical weapons of Japan thus they are used to aide instruction in the art.

Aiki-ken - The sword of Aikido
Aiki-jo - The jo of aikido

There's more but you really should just go and train, it will all make sense in time.

Dave

 

I hope that my 5 years of kickboxing training will not disturb to my aikido technique, and I will be able to progress in Aikido.

aikiMac, Dave Humm - ARIGATO

 

Your kickboxing will probably mess up your Aikido technique until you are in Aikido long enough to understand the concepts/principles driving the techniques. Many Aikido techniques will feel unnatural to you at first because you have ingrained combat instincts from kickboxing that will appear to conflict internally to the lessons in Aikido. So expect that both your kickboxing and Aikido will be worse off for a while as you try to figure things out, so you might have to really cut down on your kickboxing for six months to a year (go in an almost maintenance mode with kickboxing) and spend a majority of your time training in Aikido.

However, this is just part of a learning curve. Once you get past the learning curve, stuff will integrate and work better together and both kickboxing and Aikido will improve together. At least this is what I found.

When you can go kickboxing and Aikido concepts and principles in sparring and your mind is clear and not conflicting, that is when things will progress and you will benefit from both in your martial arts.

 

ooops!

Hugs, all of you!

I read most of what is posted here, and, even though I'm still a noob (After many years), I find some of the answers a little...disturbing.

Aikido is a "defensive" art, and as such, I have been taught , initializes no attacks. Whilst we do not attack, we are aware of the goings on around us, and can invite an attacker to approach us as we choose, that we may better neutralize an "attack." :Angel:

I reference here the book, "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere," and I think that which I'm trying to explain here lies in the first 50 pages or so.

Or have I missed something? :cry:

And yes, I have used Aikido in some very intense street situations...

Blessings... luv, Jessie

 

I left kickboxing. I feel that there is nothing else it can give me. I am also a very good at elbow/knee fighting (this is a muai-thai expansion of kickboxing). Actually I also did few years of judo (not any more). Maybe this will give me some advantage in aikido learning curve ?

 

Basically what The Dave says is perfect as usual.
Ive tried to point this out a few times. AIKIDO IS NOT ABOUT SELF DEFENCE. ie you never wait to be attacked.
The founder stated in Iwama (his home) That the most basic attack Shomen is started by tori who raises like an upper cut or raising your sword directly under ukes face and bring it right up into his face. Now in the dojo we practice this with an open hand, but it can also be a fist or anything to get a reaction.there are other varations on this like uke attcking down on to toris head shomen uchi komi( aikikai style)
But at all times we are trying to inflence our attacker by either starting the attack or proper understanding of Hanmi, so you learn to offer certain parts of the body and make other parts harder for and attcker to reach.
If your are in a class and told to stand ther eand wait to be attacked then you react to that guess what IT AINT AIKIDO.
good luck

 

hmmmm..nomenclature again..

Hugs, again,

Aikiscotsman, *giggle* perhaps your world appears so, because you miss the start of the inappropriate behavior (attack)?

I agree, it is good to train with many opposers! However, "attack" begins with the intention, moving to the inappropriate behavior..and if one waits until this point, I can definitely understand your thinking?

However, awareness is a very good thing to cultivate, so that even as a partner or (partners)moves, one is already guiding...

I meant in no way passivity, just la, la, waiting for somebody to move against me. I intended a dynamic state of being, connected, guiding. Akira, you're in for an incredible ride!

However, "attack," in my experience, is only truly initiated by uke, to help partner practice, until instinct is rephrased...until one's reactions flow from one's intention of only neutralizing that energy, caring for even one's opponent. Anything else, to me, is not Aikido...

Blessings... luv, Jess

Again, I reference the book I suggested, earlier.

 

Thats a nice definition of aikido, I already love it

 

Some clarification is needed here, I guess. here's a start:

In the dojo it is common for one student (uke) to attack and another (tori) to defend. A good aikido student will learn powerful attacks, especially atemi (striking) as well as good defence. Otherwise, when he is uke, the tori will receive very poor practice. Sometimes, tori will 'pretend' to initiate an attack to provoke uke into attacking as he (tori) wishes - and is therefore in control.

The quality of attacks in aikido IMHO is pivotal in the art. Clubs with bad atemi breed bad technique all round. Aikido attacks must be meaningful - unless we attack with intent to place tori in fear of real damage, what is there to defend against and what is the point of training with atemi?

Outside of the dojo, for self defence, many aikido attacks are very effective. (Dave Humm has listed these recently in another thread.)

As a new student, don't be afraid to bring your previous MA experience to bear: a good sensei will delight in your enthusiasm and will also want to learn from you.

 

hmmmmm....

Kiaiki,

Of course uke must do his best to train Tori! However, uke's prowess, no matter how formidable, exist only to train Tori, not for use in defense - nowhere in Aikido itself is punching, kicking, blocking taught, and so, therefore, Aikido is a defensive art, yet not defensive as in what most of us westerners traditionally think.

What uke does to help Tori learn, is not a part of Aikido technique. I really was not suggesting anything from uke's POV, only from Tori's, as that was the line of conversation. Again, please read Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere (nice discussion of attack and neutralization, and this difference between Aikido and other), The Art of Peace (Ueshiba), or any other tome.

And I am honoring many Sensais who have guided me, when I stated that an Aikidoist doesn't attack - that flies in the face of many of O Sensai's teachings...and if we cannot take this to the streets, What then are we studying?

Blessings... luv, Jess

 

All those years of kickboxing made my punches and kicks very deadly (I'm not joking, I have tested them on streets many times).
I want to esc. How much time will it take for me to practice in aikido (in terms of ranks) to be able to stand against a kickboxer like me (one "me" is using only aikido and one "me" is using his kickboxing (After 5 years I left kickboxing, and tomorrow is my first aikido training ))

I believe in aikido, and I know that aikidoka can stand against anyone.
But the big question is : "how much time will it take to get there"

(I'm sorry if my question sounds silly and not so clear )

 

ladystar - with respect, if you are not taught those attacks as part of your aikido then the club is not intending to teach a 'martial' art - what on earth are you defending against? What uke does to help tori learn is ESSENTIAL!!

In my style, Shudokan (Yoshinkan derived), you must learn punching and kicking in order to practice - how else is tori going to learn how to defend? We are at the extreme end of 'hard' style aikido but I can't believe you do not learn these things in some form. ALL of our atacks are fully committed and (at advanced level) would seriously damage a tori whose defence was defective. The same applies with weapons such as tanto - without a committed attack there is simply not the momentum or 'spirit' to defend against. At the 1st dan level with a live tanto the attack may be deadly.

As to blocking, aikido techniques tend towards 'blending' but we certainly do block, preferably at the point when uke's momentum is weakest. Again, can't believe you are not taught effective blocks.

And yes, the attacks would be useful in self defence. This has been tried and tested many times, including in my own club by door staff, police etc.
In the UK if you are in fear of an attack you may pre-empt it. If a club doorman is approached by a guy with a broken bottle he has every right to take him down with shomen-ate.

I have read the Dynamic Sphere and a dozen other practical texts, philosophical and theoretical texts in my 40+ years of MA, so please try not to patronise. Try reading Total Aikido by Gozo Shioda and you will discover that there is actually a hard edge to the art of harmony. Practice however you wish but please recognise that without realistic attack there is no realistic defence. People have many reasons for studying aikido but you cannot generalise about aikido and its application to self defence without looking further afield than your recommended reading suggests. Visit a few harder style clubs and a variety of Sensei (please also note spelling ).

akira2000 - You've hit the nail on the head. Ask your instructor to show you how to defend against some of your best punches. How long before your aikido is up to defending against your own level of kicks etc - nobody can say without personal contact and assesment of your skills and sped of learning. Just test them out!

 

Kiaika,

So sorry if I patronized..it was not my intention.

And, I think it might be good for you to know, I have trained in a variety of Dojos, with a few different Sensais, and I'm just not sure what it is you are studying? Sounds vastly different from my experience and study. Blocks are not Aikido, as I have been taught. And that's ok! However, plz do not dishonor any Dojo in which you have not studied. We are all of us learning, in many different ways.

Also, I have given many thanks for Aikido training...in more than a few street situations, and for more than just technique...please do not denigrate that which you do not know. I am still alive, and walking, and loving...

I keep referring to that text, its first 50 pages, for that is the best explanation of Aikido, and what it is or isn't, that I've ever read or heard.

Akira, it will take you just as long as it takes you, so sorry. I don't know how you are at learning! For me, to get to the level you're speaking, and the amount of practice (at that time, everyday, usually about 3 hours), it took me about 8 months. I hope that helped? I can sometimes be a slow learner...however, if I faced a kick boxer on the street, using the principles of Aikido - instantaneously effective - I'd just walk the other way!

Blessings... luv, Jess