Article from "Black Belt Magainze" on aikido vs. aikijujitsu

Koyo brings out the firehose... woot.

But they can project energy bolts in the KI Society...

 

Also, if you keep hitting him, it looks bad, so the law might bite you back.

 

Keep punching him in the head this is boxing WRONG. MEANWHILE HE IS PUNCHING YOU IN THE RIBS SOLAR PLEXUS THROAT USING HIS KNEES FEET ELBOWS AND HEAD BUTTING TRIPS SWEEPS PINS AND THROWS.

Keep punching him in the head? what art do you train in if any and how long?


regards koyo

 

I'm not allowed to do that in my aikido class. I usually did shihonage like that. They also showed me the reason why not to do it like that:

If you do the shihonage move with a bokken you'll "cut" your partner, then you turn and hit your other partner who attacked you at the same time with a bokken and cut his wrists. If you move your foot back you can't reach your other partner.

But I'm sure this has nothing to do with what you are saying. I'm only saying this because I may not do this...

 

The way you described is the correct way of executing shiho nage. The ara waza directs the cut in the opposite direction that uke shall naturally fall bringing him down on his head. Ara waza are NOT to be executed during normal training.

regards koyo

 

Cool information.

FYI, I do suspect Koyo was referring to shihonage breaking uke's arm in four places. Once uke's forearm/elbow is separated from the side of their head, the potential for something breaking is greatly increased and the ukemi for shihonage becomes very difficult IME, if there is even opportunity for a good ukemi.

 

That's a quick reaction! I'm not doing ara waza anymore in shiho nage, but sometimes I forget when I'm too anxious or so.

 

Wow that was quick, now my previous post makes no sense.

 

What you say makes sense, but what I posted also makes sense. Atemi are in every art - they're mostly just feints, but in the extreame case, can be "smash their eyes".

So there is an internal contradictory nature to aikido from a theoretical point of view, thus all the different interpretations.

I like your post, very "aikido", as opposed to some of the people here who claim such knowledge and expereince, but when they post, don't demonstrate any knoweldge of harmony, blending, or lack of EGO.

 

LOL!

 

Atemi is very complex, people talk about how it takes years to master something like BJJ, but then they think they can learn to strike in mere minutes. Atemi is as complex as grappling, and when you combine the two, you have even more complexity...

The reason martial arts is so complex is because in action, it has to be ultimately simple. Years of training to apply something that is simple, practical and effective.

Feinting, for instance, is good, but it can get you killed. Feinting does nothing to the enemy... think of low light conditions where they don't even see you, how can a feint help you? The first focus is learning to strike or cut through the enemy, so even if they are blind, the atemi affects them. You strike through a Kuzushi (point of unbalance or weakness).

Only after learning to strike through the enemy does the use of feints make sense. Some people train to basically pull their punches... this makes everything a feint... this is no good for the real world.

Now if you don't want to maim or kill, then you have to atemi in ways that do not cause permanent damage... this takes more understanding of atemi. Rather than goughing the eyes, you can rake them, rather then a spear through the throat, you can press on the hole in the throat to invoke the gagging reflex. You will see the atemi in Aikido is often a palm smash through the face or chin... this is going to hurt, but it is less likely to kill than many other options.

It is mitigating the damage, it is not eliminating it. The final say is how effective it is on the enemy. Hope this makes sense.

I think the contradictions occur when people try to over rationalize things, such as why they are training in a war art, when they want peace in life.

To be brief, you train sincerely and hard so that you realize in training how fragile life is. By coming close to death, you build compassion for life and others. You take this compassion into the real world... you then realize you don't want to fight and will do all possible to not fight. However, you are prepared to fight and win because of the sincere and hard training.

One of the problems is that people have taken the philosophy that they don't want to fight, but they have not done the sincere and hard training to back it up if they must fight. So they are peaceful, but they have no practical combat skills... this is what some Aikido has turned into... and this is not true Aikido.

I feel people end up posting so much over the years that they realize that it never ends, the same questions come up over and over again, you end up repeating yourself. I end up not posting anything sometimes because I know I said the same thing a few months ago or a year ago. If someone shows a real interest, then I start posting more.

Whether intentional or not, Morra, you have managed to "rub people the wrong way" with some of your posts. You end up getting short replies, rather than the answers you might be looking for. These replies, such as the ones from Koyo, are dead right in my experience, but they are so brief, they don't really provide you much information.

 

Why "lol"? Koyo had a valid point, and I don't think "lol" answers it very well.

 

Exactly, Rebel. This reminds me of something koyo posted in another thread; "it is those who are prepared for war who are usually left in peace".

 

I hate it when people start going on about "theoretically this doesn't fit with the spirit of x art", because if it works, it works, and that is what matters. But if we must discuss theory... Aikido uses blending, harmony, etc. to disrupt the opponent's balance, not to stay in balance with him. Thus, atemi fits perfectly with the spirit of aikido, as it disrupts the opponents balance and causes him to "give" you more to work with.

I like RebelWado's post too. But I must point out that while you are congratulating Rebel on his "harmony", etc., some of your posts about aikido seem somewhat unharmonious...

 

Could you elaborate on this, Rebel? I always thought that striking was relatively easy to learn, compared with the grappling parts of aikido, not to mention that fighting with the fists comes more naturally to many people than locking, etc. A good example; if you take someone who has been training boxing for a couple months, he'll be able to hit pretty well. But if you take someone who has been studying aikido for a couple months, chances are he won't be able to utilize his skills as well as the boxer can ("um, grab my wrist, then I'll know what to do!" ). Of course, striking while minimizing damage is, as you pointed out, much more complicated.

 

In aikido riai the techniques of swordsmanship are integrated with the hand techniques. many thousands of suburi give you powerful and flexible wrists this with the timing distancing and decisive strikes enhance the atemi.The atemi are mainly strikes cuts and thrusts based on the weapons training the fist as in boxing is rarely used.The strikes are ment to be delivered to a kuzushi so as to aid in the unbalancing of the attacker.

Strike for strike a boxer would be more powerful than an aikidoka since punching is the MAJOR element in the boxer's art.

see martial art of aikido atemi thread.

regarding my abrupt responce.
This to one of my posts...YOUR aikido contains silly moves from a polka..you can't make aikido work..without knowledge of my training or lack thereof.

My responce would be abrupt or not at all.

regards koyo

 

Hey Spinmaster,

We train Muay Thai fighters for the ring. Some have fought after a few months of training, but they keep getting BETTER as the years go on. If striking was so simple, then they would peak out early and not improve, but it is not, there is much more to learn, always learning.

This is not even the tip of the iceberg when pressure point and compound striking is added into the mix.

But I will say that it is the same with grappling. The thing that takes the most time and experience is in "internalizing" the movements. Think of something like Tai Chi or the Tum Pai branch of Kajukenbo.

My definition of "internalizing" is when it is effective but cannot easily be seen. All the movement becomes mostly internal (not seen by the naked eye). This makes the power of the movement use the whole body, while ensuring efficiency and conciseness of these movements... it also means that someone won't see it coming (minimal telegraphing of technique).

The folks more adept in the internal arts than myself could correct where I am wrong with my statements, but I think I got most of it close to correct. Ten, twenty, forty years is not a whole lot of time for training to master this...

You know when someone has good internal methods when it hurts no matter where they hit you and it doesn't even appear that they are even putting in an effort into it.

 

Atemi might be used by an aikidoka in a fight in the same way a wrestler will strike to set up a takedown in an MMA bout.

Setting up the throw is important because in a serious situation you want to be expedient in your neutralization of the threat. If you have ever trained in something like boxing or muay thai or MMA you will understand that it is not easy to strike determined people unconscious. In a serious situation you want to end the threat as quickly as possible. If an attacker falls unconscious from your blows, great, but if not, a grappler will always be looking for an opportunity to apply a decisive technique (takedown of some sort so that he can either follow up by controlling on the ground or get away).

Seriously, what is your experience in martial arts?

 

I've trained with at least three police officers at my school and we are currently training a cohort of security and transit guards.

With their current line of work, they often come across intoxicated individuals, be it alcohol or amphetamines. When they are in this state, their pain tolerance reaches no bounds. Hitting them with intent to "knock em out" is possibly the worst thing you can do, as they just can't feel it, and it makes them more aggravated, similar to Freyr description of a determined attacker.

One recent incident with one of the police officer involving a guy with amphetamines is that he managed to secure a side wrist lock (nikkyo or yoko kotekudaki) with the offender, which managed to immobilise him. However, in the events preceding that move, the druggie hurt a fellow officer who used the striking methods to get his assailant down. Seeing him in control by one of our students, he seized the opportunity to get revenge and started hitting him again. The druggie started to go nuts, and broke his own wrist in attempt to get at the short tempered officer again. Having lost control and further clean opportunities, four officers just had to jump on him and flatten him until they could cuff him and transport him to a holding cell.

Next morning the guy could not stop complaining about his arm. He finally started to feel the pain only then. The wrist and forearm were like a balloon, so red hot and angry. They had to get him medical attention, both for the wrist and the after effects of the drugs.

 

Whoa, this almost sounds like alcohol and emphatemines are good to use before a fight. You become invincible...

Maybe the lumberjack in this article used them