Article from "Black Belt Magainze" on aikido vs. aikijujitsu

I was looking at www.blackbeltmag.com and came across this article:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/544

I must say it frustrates me quite a bit. Aikido is presented as "not a combat system but a way to spiritual peace" and the standard misconceptions (i.e. "aikido has no strikes", "aikido does not attack", etc.) are reinforced. The author even goes so far as to say that Ueshiba removed atemi from Aikido!!! I thought Black Belt was a knowledgeable MA publication, so this really took me by surprise. Why is misinformation like this published?

 

"About the author: Gail E. Nelson is a freelance writer based in Seattle."

Says it all really. If it was recent, I'd pen a reply, but I really can't be bothered.

 

THis was typical of those wishing to sell "their" version of combat aikido. They conveniently forgot/ignored shihan Like Chiba ,Noro ,Saito.Sadly it was/is quite common. I have books in my possesion that state there are no strikes in aikido and in EVERY technique atemi is used. It was just a selling point in the sixties to attract the hippies.

It took him TWENTY YEARS to find out it was ineffective. It takes me ten minutes to watch a class and see if it has any potential.

Don't be surprised, I was asked to demonstrate of aikido at a martial arts demonstration when the promoter visited my club he said it was too violent would I mind leaving out the strikes and "hard" throws.

As for misinformation...there are a lot of aiki bunnies out there who hide behind a suprior moral attitude simply to hide ineffective techniques.

Ignore them.

regards koyo

ineffective my butt (which it saved on Glasgow streets more than a few times)

 

Koyo, what technique is in the picture? I love it!

 

It is an ara waza (severe technique) a version of shiho nage using atemi to the throat and entanglement to "endanger" the elbow shoulder and spine.

The boy receiving it is tough as nails and expert in ukemi (actually there is no ukemi) it cannot be performed on anyone of inexperience.It is mitigated to allow a kind of breakfall.

regards koyo

ara waza irrimi nage

 

The article is from February 1986.

IMO, the article is a surprisingly good example of the kinds of discussions and studies that took place in the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s, particularly in law enforcement groups.

 

Yes, now I'm mad at the author of this article. Although, I didn't have any real street fights, so I probably have to rely on what my teachers say about my aikidoclub members where aikido saved them e.g.: disarming someone, avoiding a falling tree...

But, I have used aikido in my P.E. lessons. I had to be the sensei and teach my fellow students...

So I started with ikyo, so I needed a volunteer, I performed ikyo omote slowly with a wrist grab. I moved my hand up, stepped out of the line of attack, then, when I actually moved towards him, doing the technique, I felt a short heavy resistance and then he collapsed and fell on the ground.

I still had his arm, but because of his collapse I lost control over his body for a second, having only an arm. Though, this was no problem, but well, it wasn't excactly good to show I guess.

I think it's too bad that a lot of skilled aikidokas don't demonstrate their skills to prove it works when someone says something like this.

 

"I think it's too bad that a lot of skilled aikidoka don't demonstrate their skills to prove it works when someone says something like that"

Been there done that and the responce is always the same..."THAT was not aikido." answer is always the same "Perhaps not the "aikido" you saw"


regards koyo

 

Well there's your first problem.

 

Ah, atemi.

Basically you can't make aikido just work, you have to hurt the person to distract them so then you can pull your fancy throw or lock on them, right?

So why bother with the fancy aikido lock or throw? You bash his face as atemi, why not just keep bashing him in the face? They call it "boxing".

Hell, you use atemi and you can plug in anything to finish the person: aikido or some silly move from a polka. If you can't make aikido work without having the opponent first bent over in agony from some strike, it doesn't really work by itself... it's just a fancy way to finish someone without hurting them... after you've hurt them. I don't see the big point.

 

o my good god,you've got to be joking right??

 

There is nothing FANCY about aikido techniques (unless you have been hanging with the aiki bunnies) The aim is to CONTROL rather than injure. The ara waza techniques which emphasise atemi are for fighting when in real danger. This would be clear if you read the posts or attended a reputable aikido class.



regards koyo

 

lol, I feel kind of silly to realize that the article is from 1986. :hat:

@koyo: Correct, as usual. Question about ara waza; one would have to be in good physical shape, as well as very experienced at aikido to recieve it properly, would he not?

@Morra: You say "you can't just make aikido work, you have to use atemi". I think you need to realize that atemi is part of aikido. You say "once you've started pounding his face in, why not continue pounding?" Because then it's a contest of force on force. By applying the lock, you:

1. Control the opponent, rather than trying to use force to overpower him.

2. Have the option of not hurting him as much (unless he really won't cooperate, then he's going to get hurt in any case... but I'd rather him get hurt than me ).

@RebelWado: When you say it's a "good example of the studies done back then" do you mean that it has merit in what it is saying, as relates to aikido back then, or are you saying that it demonstrates the common view of aikido, etc. at that time?

 

Actually I mean both and more Spinmaster.

A common view of all martial arts at the time was that it was "super effective" (e.g. making a mere normal person over years of training invincible, like in the movies). The reality, however, was you had a lot of martial arts teachers that had little to none real world experience. The best of them probably had a good resume of experience in the sport side of martial arts (which is nothing to disregard, but what works in sport isn't always going to be the smart thing to do in a real world situation).

The point is that the ones that actually were using this stuff on the front lines were law enforcement, particularly police officers working on the streets. The differences between what was taught in say an Aikido dojo, and what actually was useful to police officers was not a 1 to 1 ratio. Maybe more like less than 1% of what was learned in a dojo actually was useful in the streets. IF YOU WERE A PERSON THAT EXPECTED even 50% to work, you were probably in for a big rude awakening in the first week of duty.

Today in the Seattle area, quite a few of the Aikido organizations work much more closely with law enforcement, offering more specialized training in defensive tactics and such. This was not even an option forty years ago as far as I know.

The article has some points that I do not believe to be factual about Aikido, but it tells one very important story. It tells of a police officer that became a teacher of martial arts. It is because of people like this, that Aikido and many martial arts has progressed in the Seattle area.

To me, it is because we have a lot of ex-law enforcement that are now teachers and students of martial arts that we can see the practical side of martial arts. If not your teacher, as training partners at least, law enforcement are the people that you MUST train with if you are serious about advancing your martial arts to practical application. They are a valuable resource to any dojo and in cross-training.

Of course this is just my humble opinion.

 

It is good to see that you understand the importance of effective atemi. I like using the saying, "the best takedown is to knock the other guy out!"

The use of atemi to hurt and damage is there, but primarily the use of atemi in Aikido is to unbalance the enemy... I would add stunning the enemy as well. Distraction, knockout, permanent damage and such are all possible, but they are secondary goals. Just picture how a boxer would fight someone they really didn't want to hurt... then you might see the possibility of how atemi could be used in that situation.

To help illustrate, atemi can be done with all parts of the body, not just the fist, for instance, you can atemi with the hips to take the balance away from the enemy. Atemi includes application of good positioning, timing, structure, acceleration, and pressure (applying maximum force into minimum area) as well as movement, hitting vital targets, and using the best striking surface to fit the target.

Note: You might not see the atemi easily, but the concept exists in Judo and BJJ as well.

One of the reasons that Aikido probably developed as it did was it is also a weapon art. An enemy can be subjugated quickly with a knockout or killing blow, but that is not so easy to do, particularly against an armed enemy. It is not a good idea to trade punches with a knife, for example. Particularly if the enemy with the knife is already twice your size and much stronger than you. So now you have a need for more options than just punching them.

 

Spinmaster

ARA WAZA
Ara waza can be demonstrated relative to the standard of the trainee usually it takes the form of "if you change the angle here and direct the technique here it inhibits ukemi or turns the technique against the joint."


To survive ara waza techniques which are held back slightly you have to be very fit flexible and expert in atemi and ukemi.The atemi means that uke times the strike to allow a block but empowers it so that even when blocked it unbalances uke.

An example of ara waza would be when about to execute shiho nage instead of throwing forward draw you foot backward and cut directly into the mat in front of yourself.Look at it but be carefull if you try it.


regards koyo

 

Just had a look at the photos demonstrating sankyo and ikkyo. sankyo the guy could easily punch her with his free hand .Sankyo should take you onto your toes and into the mat.

Ikkyo his leg is in FRONT of the attacker???

twenty years training and does not use atemi and attempts a LOCK on a giant of a man....please!!!

I dislike making negative posts but I could fill a thread with mistakes and mis information from that article.


regards koyo

 

Let it all out Koyo.

Well blackbelt magazine may have good intentions, but their picture sequences seldom ever show a strong example of the text they are suppose to be demonstrating. The picture of Sankyo is supposed to emphasize locking the fingers instead of the wrist. And if you don't remember in your old age... (just kidding), you even brought up "Sankyo on the little finger" as a technique in previous discussions as something against larger people.

The Ikkyo picture is really misleading. It is actually a variation of Nikkyo, the previous to the picture was probably something like bringing your leg over the arm of the opponent. This is a technique sometimes seen in FMA when both hands are being used to control the opponent, using the leg as a "third" arm and while kicking can be employed. It is not a favorite technique for me, in fact, the only nice things about it is that if you were already kicking across the face of the opponent, the transition to the lock is quick... plus they added an additional bonus of stepping on the opponent's hand. Now how you do this in real time... I'm not sure... but police really, really, like stepping on hands and feet... call it a professional secret maybe.

Nuff said, I can't really explain much of the misinformation in the article beyond that, but there is a better write up of the retired police detective I found here: http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_1101.htm

It just seems that he was exposed to the old ways of Aikido training but did not understand how important such training was, then later, seeing how Aikido was turning less effective, he wanted to go back to the old ways, only he called it aiki-jutsu instead of just saying it was the way Aikido was originally trained, or something like that. Just my interpretation of what was going on.

 

Aikido AND policework MUST assume the possibility of another attacker so we never get our leg entwined or placed where it can be grabbed.

Mr Lau had an agenda he had videos to sell. He did not put in the years of training in aiki jujutsu indeed some of the shihan were angered at his use of the term.He should have said the practical techniques of aikido WHICH ALREADY EXISTED without implying that he had changed the art because it was ineffective.

Myself I was never exposed to "the old ways" the training had ALWAYS been severe and effective.FUKOSHIDOIN those chosen to be national coaches were taught severe techniques in the off chance that they may have to meet a challenge I was Scottish national coach for the ten years Chiba shihan was in britain.

MR lAU TRAINED UNDER KOICHI TOHEI CREATER OF KI AIKIDO WHICH HAS NO MARTIAL EFFECTIVENESS AT ALL AND IN FACT NO LONGER GOES BY THE TERM AIKIDO USING INSTEAD KI SOCIETY.


REGARDS KOYO

and that is nowhere near letting it all out.

 

Whoever said that you have to hurt someone with atemi? If that were true, then every punch would be made to hurt everytime. It's like saying the left jab in boxing sucks cause it never takes out the opponent, it's the right cross that is effective.

Pretty narrow minded thinking as well. If you want to win, you're welcome to keep on hitting an assailant, but if you want to survive, you'd better have more options at hand.