Hello everyone, Accidentally, I met this Chinese guy where I live and I realise now that in the East there are two currents of practice: 1. For the ones which this principle is applicable: when the student is ready the master will find him. 2. For the majority This Chinese guy teaches the major internal arts (Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi)internal martial arts following the first system. He won't teach you anything until you're ready for the next step. And I know a couple of guys who train with him which have spent already two years doing nothing but learning how to move in Taiji. They haven't learned even the opening form of the Yang style (the one he teaches). I asked him if he was willing to teache me Bagua. As I said the Bagua word he said stand over there and watch the rest of the group. He was like a brick wall. Needless to say that he only charges $ 5 Australian dollars. I think I have met by accident a true Daoist master. Some of the guys told me that this guy inherited his learning from his family (Military lineage). He's very secretive and does not talk much, but also very honest. He also told me to forget about the qi thing. Interesting but after meeting this guy and reading Gurdjieff's "In search of the miraculous" I realise now that the real stuff taught in the East has been only passed through oral tradition to selected students. The funny thing is that this guys told me that he has over a thousand students, but only a handful remain with him. They all want to learn how to fight and the form, but none get to know the essence of the art. From what I have seen this guy focuses on raising your awareness of our reality. He talks about dimensions in Taiji. I could not hear more because I was late and only my first contact class, to check him out and his method. He said that Dao belongs to everyone. It's a waste of time making money out of the Way (I agree with him 100%). Question: Are you really getting what you're paying for? I thought I was (in my case I was learning for free) but I wasn't because my teacher focused on the form. He learned from Chen XiaoWang's lineage but it doesn't matter he wasn't teaching the real thing because he ignored the real thing himself. What is your experience in this area? Are IMA today a shadow of what they were in ancient times? Think about it.
I know that I am. How do I know. To say would take longer than I have time to write at this time. But, I know without a doubt. Here's a few reasons: 1.) I trained external for about a decade, when I encountered internal I was highly impressed. 2.) Lineage was great 3.) Training. It's real and I can tell the difference from my earlier training, and I can make it work. 4.) Verification from others outside my school and lineage. 5.) True training rings true within me. Marty
Hey.. TKD guy here This question applies to just about every martial-art out there. A lot of people wanna know if they are learning the real thing. I think that the question is more simple than it appears to be. I truely believe you are learning the real thing if the following criteria are met: 1. Are you getting in shape? Yes? Good. 2. Do you feel better about yourself? Yes? Good. 3. Does your instructor explain the movments of forms, blocks, kicks, strikes, etc? Yes? Good. 4. Does your instructor teach you how to apply them in real life situations? Yes? Good. 5. Are you spending more time on "realistic" self-defense applications than on one or two or three step sparring and point sparring? Yes? Good. 6. (and to a lesser degree) Is your instructor certified by a governing body for your martial-art or does he/she have a lineage? Yes? Good. ((This is a very minor thing because some martial-arts teachers are excellent who have no affiliation whatsoever.)) Hope I didnt ramble on too much.
Well, I learn in a fairly large group of about 20 or 30. We learn applications of every move, but of course, the teacher can't show the applications on each person, so if you wanna feel it, I guess ask alot of questions in class. We do cannon fist, first form, taiji ruler, chi kung, and push hands. It's Chen Zhou Kui line Taiji and I have verified it is the same style as others of that line. We train the real fighting applications, So basically I think I have a similar reply as wingchunners. QIgong, I do WIld Goose. Now I was told by other students in my class only 3 disciples were shown beyond the first 20 sets. And only one knows all 72. Actually I looked up on the internet that there are 5 indoor disciples. On Michael Tse's website it says he knows over 40 of the 72 sets. I only know 8 I think, my teacher knows thew first 20 sets. He's good too, and I still know less than half of what he knows, and I'm wrong on some moves, so to learn 20 of the 72 sets IMO is very very good. In the real, high, high level systems, beyond martial arts and healing, I think if you get anything at all you have surpassed everyone else. My Chen teacher talks about different skill levels. Muscle level, force on force, lowest level. Bone structure, bone structure beats muscle everytime, like a horizontal spiralling elbow hit cuts right through. CHi level, you are blended with the opponent, he can't find you or get away. Yi level, insatnly semd the opponent flying out at contact, or you instantly have him as soon as he attacks or touches you. In higher level systems, there is physical, mental, and spiritual levels. Also development within the 3 realms, and beyond the 3 realms. IMO and from my own assessment, I am at a high level in mental enrgy cultivation, and though I cultivate spiritually, I would not say I am at spiritual level in the strict sense. However, if I don't train in the physical level, I will go back to muscle level in the physical, even though I retain my mental energy developmemnt.
Some articles on Kunlun Dayan qigong- http://dayan.oompa.net/qigong.html http://www.qimagazine.com/qigong.htm So while I will most likely never know the whole system, I would not say I am not getting the true skill, I would say I am. Beyond Taiji and qigong, to go higher, what I would want to do is become a monk of the Children of the Law of One. DOn't know if that'll ever be possible either. I'm not saying anyone should neccessarily run off to China to search the mountains for masters, but her's an interesting article which talks a little bit about a qigong master's training. http://www.qinway.org/au1.html
First, when referring to the title, I believe the 'real thing'(TM) is different for everyone. The truth is always the same, but as part of the beauty of life is that we are allowed the freedom to choose a side of the truth that sits most comfortably with you. I'm glad you have found a teacher that appeals to you. However, are there any guarantee that this teacher is not hiding his inabilities as well? I know how the teacher seems to be applying a very traditional teaching method, but with so many mcdojos out there, are you willing to invest months and years before finding out if his abilities are proven? If you are, then all the best, you are not a noob that can be easily fooled either. I think different teaching methods fits different students. Personally for me, I feel I will grow much further if I study with a teacher that's willing to converse openly with me and can work together as a partner in my journey. I have studied with a teacher that is more 'aloof' (if that's the right word), and I found myself getting discouraged because of the lack of explanations. To your next question, "Is IMA a shadow to what they are in ancient times?" That depends on which angle you are looking at. If you are referring to the level of skill, you'll never know because the masters of old are already dead and you cannot test them against the current age masters. According to the stories, they are much much better than every human being on this planet, but the Chinese are also well-known (almost notorious) for their additives to stories. However, I prefer to take the angle of how much IMA has spread since ancient times. I believe IMA has now grown in leaps and bounds. If you just go back 50 years ago, and ask around in a western country (US, UK, Australia, etc) what taiji is, I dont believe anyone would know. Trying to find an IMA teacher in these countries are even harder. As you mentioned in your post, you are able to find, what you believe to be the 'real thing'(TM) in Queensland. I believe that alone is a vast improvement since ancient times. Again, in ancient times, would you be able to join the class on a $5 Australian note? I think what they are looking for is more towards a letter of reference from another teacher, or a goodwill gesture from the teacher to be willing to teach you. Be thankful for the improvements, and be aware of the possible depreciations. You can only learn so much in a lifetime anyway. PS. I believe wholeheartedly to the saying, if the student is ready and fated, the right teacher will appear. It has come true.
Personally, I like a teacher who is up-front. The best way of seeing the skill of your teacher is to watch them doing forms, or try to surprise them in push hands (and get ready to fall over!). Or simply ask the teacher to demonstrate the advanced forms/applications. Remember, there's no belts in tai chi - there shouldn't be any room for hero worship or ego (nothing against belts....). It's obvious when someone has real skill, and the sign of a good student is understanding when certain things are outside of your skill set at the moment. But a secretive teacher sounds like he's hiding something.
serious-ly, I was referring to Fa Ke when making that comment earlier. I see you read my mind. And yes, no one alive (or dead) is better than Chen Fa Ke (or so his stories say).
Are you learning the real thing? I think so, but it's my own particular 'real thing'. It might not be yours. Are you really getting what you're paying for? Yep. Am I paying for what I want? (a better question really) The answer to that is definitely yes as well. It's all well and good wanting to learn killer techniques or whatever, but if you are attending a health only school then your not going to get what you are looking for. Are IMA today a shadow of what they were in ancient times? The world is a vastly different place now, and the martial arts have changed and adapted to deal with that. Nothing is totally the same, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. In ancient times you would have had people coming into the school to 'duke it out' with your teacher, sometimes people got seriously injured in this. If the teacher lost, for whatever reason, then the school got shut down. Doesn't happen now though. If it is a shadow, it's a bloody great big one. Some of the stories about the ancient masters are just that, stories. Chinese whispers. I like a teacher who makes the classes/school an enjoyable place to be.
Is there a "real thing"? Do we allow wish fulfillment, fantasies and stereotypical views of what a "master" should be blind us to the truth? When a teacher says "I only teach my family the real thing" how is it that he still has a big crowd of adoring students? The "real thing" isn't out there, is in you. Analyse your reasons for training, then ask if your current training measures up to that. And remember - what is "secret"in one school is most likely shown openly somewhere else.
I was taught "When the pupil is ready, the master will appear" Slightly different to the master 'finding' the student. The master can be right in front of you, but not 'appear' until you are ready to learn/receive what he/she wishes to teach you.... Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. Chinese martial art etiquette is more confucian than Daoist ime. Most Chinese do not limit themselves to one outlook, so this approach to training is not necessarily Daoist in nature. I don't see how you can be secretive and honest. All this 'secrecy' stuff smacks of psychological game-playing to me. (And I'm not saying I never do that lol see later in this post...) What 'Daoist Master' would say such a thing? Qi development is central to Daoist martial arts and Qigong. Perhaps he was referring to wu wei - as in not trying to attain Qi? Either way, I would seriously question any 'master' of the internal arts who made such a statement. That's true ime - this is one of the things that endangers the long-term survival of IMA. Again this is politics and social order stuff within clans. Very inward and backwards thinking. See last comment. How cruel to treat seeking minds this way! The traditional Chinese masters need to come into the 20th and 21st centuries or their arts will die. My teacher taught this and I do too. Those that are not ready simply don't hear it. I don't have to hide anything or play games (most of the time lol). If he's really traditional that alone may cost you an extra five year wait while he decides whether you are respectable enough to learn his art lol And no one lol I agree, but everyone has to eat. If your motivation is money, forget it. But 'fair pay for fair do's' is not against the Way. Doesn't that contradict the previous statement? Is it all about money really, then? My teacher taught me for free when I was broke and I paid when I could - often by working for her. I still do stuff for her when I can despite having left the school nine years ago. If you are not a master yourself, how on earth can you judge your teacher like that? Perhaps you have found a new teacher that better suits your temperament, but don't be too harsh on your old one. The form contains everything a beginning student needs. Traditionally a student must first master their ego before practising 'the real thing' (btw BIG LOL....'The Real Thing' = Coca Cola roflmao) Recently an aggressive external martial artist wanted to join my class. After talking through his reasons I felt he wanted something I was not prepared to give him at an early stage. I also felt his motives were suspect. I politely tried to explain this, but he was having none of it and despite me suggesting he look elsewhere he insisted on staying to watch the class. (His insistence proved my judgement to be correct ime btw) I proceeded to teach very soft letting go and healing energy exercises while he watched and steered clear of all martial art references. After about twenty minutes or so, he left with a somewhat smirking "thankyou". We then went back to our usual practice. When he is ready, his master will appear. He may have a long wait imo. lol From his perspective I was not teaching 'the real thing'. He left thinking that and will not return. This 'real thing' we speak of in modern times is (ime) based on EMA values, not true IMA values. See above Well for a start they aren't really that ancient. But, to answer, in some cases yes, in some cases no. Some of the 'real' Taijiquan I've seen is as watered down and bollox as the made-up new age styles. And some of the weakest looking Taijiquan may hide some serious skills. If you aren't patient enough you will never find this out. (And trying to push the teacher into giving you what you want will just get you a very long wait lol) I do constantly. I concluded that despite being a total cow at times and having the highest dropout rate of students in history (I was the only one that made it out of many hundreds lol) my teacher was a true master and what she gave me was truly 'the real thing' It took many years to realise that. I am still learning from her, many years down the line... N :Angel:
'Am I getting the real thing?' That depends on what you want. In the end the student has to decide. The best thing a student can do is ask themselves what they want and expose themselves to as much as possible. This I guess is the best way to ensure you are not being duped.
I might add: for the instructor, letting the student decide means not pandering to them. Schools that want your money will give you what you want ... the most advanced forms right away. Not being pandered to, as with the above 'daoist master,' is a good sign, though it is still the student's choice to stay or to leave.
Here is an interesting article. http://www.geocities.com/tukylam/taijiform.htm SO, my teacher does not mainly teach Taijiquan for fighting, and yet, he is teaching many applications for every move pretty clearly, so it's at a pretty fast rate. Am I not getting the full training because we don't really mainly apply our techniques for fighting, I don't know. Our main emphasis is correct form.
Every teacher is different. Master Liu Yun Qiao when first studied Ba Ji fist with Li Su Wen. He had to stand with a low kick stance with Ma Bu for 3 years. Li Su Wen was the imperial body guard for Qing emperor. Later Liu learned all the essences of Ba Ji fist. It is not surprised to stand and watch for 6 months or more before the first lesson. Or stand in horse stance, Ma Bu for 2 to 3 years before lesson one. Well, it was the old days.
Hi guys, I really appreciate your effort you put in your replies and please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that I found the Holy Grail and you guys live in darkness. The spirit of this article was to show that in IMA business (as all business in life) there are exceptional teachers (you should be like if you find one of these), good teachers (the ones many people will find) and wanna be teachers (these ones you should be aware of). The last category is the one that is eager for you hard earned $ and the ones everyone should be away from. However there are people (very naive and good intentions) that end up being trained by these and as a consequence they are wasting money and time. This thread just tries to be informative for beginners, usually the ones who end up being a prey of bad teachers. Regards,
No, no worries, I am not misunderstanding you at all. I think some of our posts also pointed out some things that you can think about this new teacher of yours. Any thoughts on those, or would you prefer to disregard them? (whichever is fine, I dont mind, as long as you are happy about what you do, more power to you!).
Sorry, no new teacher yet. I decided to wait until I move out from where I currently live. It'd be silly starting something new and dropping it after few months. Cheers.
