Man, you replies are getting hard and harder to read! Anyway… I was referring to both TKD and Japanese Karate (as that’s how TKD came about), as that is the matter at hand. And yes, it is a relatively new thing for both (especially TKD as we know). And saying it has been around in Japanese Karate for longer is misleading – yes, it has as the ‘apps’ people started doing similar to Wado and Shotokan a while back… but it hasn’t always ‘been there’ because Shotokan never came to mainland Japan with the ‘applications’ it was just prior to that they we changed to the ‘school’ P/K/B type!! As for Okinawan systems… sure they were there, but all but died out AFAIA (though i think Goju maintained some but this developed along different lines to Shotokan, as it still retains the hard and soft aspects from its kung-Fu heritage, where as Shotokan doesnt).. in fact the only Okinawan Master I know of that did them (until he passed away recently) was Sensei Oyata. There may be others, but information on them is hard to come by, I know as in 2005 when I was researching my book, I could find very little on the original Okinawan applications or any that teach them in the modern era. Can’t speak of ‘Chinese systems’ as there’s so many styles… and my experience is limited. I know the apps taught vary though – best I`ve seen was in Tai Chi and some decent stuff in Chin-Na (but that’s not saying much as I havnt looked at others in much depth) and TBH base a lot of what I’ve seen from what I watched in the late 80’s and 90’s – which TBH was mostly poor – worse than the P/K/B brigade actually. That’s your opinion and that’s fine. Understanding the intent of them is what’s chiefly important IMO.. knowing all the dynamics of every move would obviously be great – understanding the intent of kata and that their DNA is still infused in patterns is a good start to the work I and others do IMO. ‘Practioners of these systems’.. what does that mean… I still know amny TKD people who don’t know TKD comes from Shotokan roots… and as Japanese karate (Shotokan and its off shoots) lost all its application teaching from around 1900 onwards – those guys are no better or more well informed than anyone else I`m afraid - unless you are saying its Okinawan students and Kung-Fu students that are saying so… to which I`d question it all anyway (as per my answers above). Funnily enough, as I mentioned in Hae Sul vol 2.. a number of TKD Masters are also Masters (or have studied in-depth) some of the Chinese systems and use that basis to unravel the TKD patterns, such as Master Willie Lim etc. – I would think they are pretty well informed as far as the linkage can go – if you chose to follow that route back to White Crane! Then if humans have not changed and many of the moves n TKd remain similar to their shotokan heritage – it works the other way around to! BTW – I agree with you about storing idea’s for fight in kata Also, AFAIA, there was a strong disconnect between the original White Crane view of fighting and the Okinawan view (especially the Shotokan lineage) and that also translated into kata ie. Matsumura etc. didn’t fight like a kung-fu man did – he was very straight to the point! Good and that’s fine – I just wondered why you kept labouring the ‘in-fight’ thing all the time. In fact I still don’t get it if you understand my point – as it makes us talking about two different things!!! No, purposely hidden from its father art – Shotokan – this is fact – not me ‘saying’ it! My comments on eye-gouging and knifehands were in reference to actual video footage – I do not know what is in other styles exactly – or are you twisting my point somewhat? Who is ‘we’? Sorry, I don’t even know what style you actually do – I am presuming MMA or similar right? Again, your twisting my point somewhat, which was soley in reference to the lack of video footage of some things and the abundance of footage of others – I wont repeat it all! Nothing is ‘extra special’ about knifehands, though they are good SD techniques and as you say, the delivery system is the same/similar as ‘sporting’ technique’s, yet there is very little footage of them being used – In that, I was comparing it to the reasoning why very little ‘application in use’ footage exsists (as well as the other reasoning mentioned before). As I said before, like any technique, the more one practices it, the better it becomes.. if its crap it remains crap period – I know that myself, not just from apps, but my striking, kicking, throwing etc. and for me (and thus anyone else who trains them properly) the same applies with applications – As you have said, they are a fighters moves, put into a form and thus remain (a stylised somewhat) fighters moves – so the same applies IMO – practicing them within a pattern is just one part (a small one at that IMO) – just the start in fact – a bit like practicing the footwork for a shoulder throw before you apply it as a throw, then as a resisted throw etc. But once again, this is all in regards to the ‘lack of video’ discussion that’s being twisted again and im not sure why you can’t just stick to the points of the discussion at hand! Stuart
You make some pretty big statements suggesting you know more about Okinawa styles or Chinese styles to say you would disagree with the views of people who live or have lived these styles. Or that no one has been doing this stuff. You say AFAIA too. Maybe your not aware of everything. I genuinely don't mean that offensively ,but I'm sure it will be taken so. And I'm not implying I know everything either. I love being wrong as it means I learn. At the end of the day I could not prove you right or wrong or you prove me right or wrong with words. It all comes down to what can be done in real fight time at realistic intensity against non compliant opponents. The clips are so so important in this as so far non have been shown at realistic intensity or in real fight time or with non compliant opponents. This says more than any words. The ideas being given or shown in clips will not work as they are,in a realistic encounter. You keep saying about it being trained properly too. There's no clips of this either. I'm trying to give people a chance. My criticisms could be totally put to bed or my points destroyed if these things were shown. Like I say, I love being wrong. It's important as some don't have a reference point to what violence is so people can get awAy with clips like those shown. Like I say ,I agree that apps are in their someone they just have to be based on realistic intensity. So I am not twisting your point on clips. Your claiming things can't be shown for certain reasons and I'm saying those reasons are irrelevant. If they work, they could be shown, if they don't work as well as claimed or at all, they can only be shown in demos or at unrealistic intensity. In terms of human movement and Katas or patterns or forms, I don't think you understood or I didn't make it clear. I will try... There's is only one way humans move and its not robotic like tkd or even styles of karate. The reason these styles move this way is a misinterpretation of the styles that they came from. If the very first group of people who created forms , how ever many years ago, let's say, 200 or 300 odd years ago, and its likely that it was China from what we know...if they came back today, they would want nothing to do with app guys or how they do patterns and more likely train like fighters do. That's what I mean by misinterpretation. From them through the styles, to now, it's all gone wrong and how tkd performs its patterns and how it interprets them is a way that was never meant to be anyhow.
Not at all, I never said that. You said you’re well informed about this stuff, I asked from whom and you said “people who did said styles” - no names, just 'people'! Plus, just cos someone trains in an art, it doesn't mean they study it in any more depth than accepting whatever they are told (I mean look at TKD - many do exactly that!).. so in view of your unnamed authorities.. I have a right to be sceptical.. my research aside, my sources are recognised historians and/or authorities on karate history, which I am happy to name (and credit in my books) and their view of history goes against your view, which is why I asked who your sources were – because they should be the same source’s on Karate history that I have and if not, I want to read their stuff! But yes, I do know a bit about it and the history, as I have been researching it all for over a decade now! As for knowing more about Chinese styles - I suggest you re-read my comment, as I said the exact opposite! There's a lot of people 'doing this stuff' - strangely enough they are pretty well known by other people 'doing this stuff'! If your reference here is in a more historical context, then please name who these people are/were.. because past say 10/15 years ago... very few, if any were not subscribing to the P/K/B method! I`m sure I`m not too (that’s why I put AFAIA!!!). And why would I be offended? I am happy to learn things I don’t know and freely admit, my study into the ‘Father’ arts of TKD goes as far as it needs to for what I need in relation to TKD (okay, well maybe a little bit more lol).. but its not as in-depth as a Karate historian such as Clayton or Abernethy obviously, But on the other side of the coin, I have been researching and studying this very area for a long time.. and that doesn't just mean TKD.. but its history back to Okinawa and beyond. You? Like I said, there's none about that I know of (probably for the reasons previously stated).. but when I see some, I`ll post them for you . Can you post a video of you in a street fight? No! That means you can't fight then right? (Yes, I am being cynical here - don't go out and start a fight on my behalf lol). Plus, the fact we disagree about which stage of a conflict applications come into effect, makes even setting up a filming difficult, as I don’t feel the majority are ‘in-fight’ but ‘pre-fight’ so to set up a film of that I`d have to start (or be filming) part of a conflict for real, as anything else would be considered ‘set up’! Or, for your way, it would be full contact sparring, trying to use applications when I would have different/better alternatives (as has already been discussed earlier in this thread). Not exactly sure what you want here! You want a video clip of someone drilling an application say 1000's times? Sure.. I get that. When they appear, I`ll post them, no problem. So are all students in your school shown violent video clips before they start hitting pads then, as a reference point! Okay No you are, I didn’t say they can’t be shown for certain reasons, I said they are not there (on video) for certain reasons (my guesses as to why not) – that’s a big difference and a twist on my words. That’s your opinion and that fine. But, by your reasoning, if the ‘first’ forms came from the exercises of Bodhirama at Shaolin and developed from there, then humans move in exactly the same way as the Shaolin monks forms right? If not, why do their forms look like they do? It seems you are under the assumption that those into pattern applications believe that they move 'like a pattern' in a real fight - this was already dispelled way back in this thread, did you miss that? 'Misrepresentation of the style'.. er, okay.. so the guys that created the kata, misrepresented themselves then eh!! I bow to your superior knowledge then! Stuart
Just to touch on part of this (the bolded bit), which I found interesting, I don't know about in the US, but certainly in the UK, all TKD persons were very happy to accept the P/K/B method, without question - it wasn't until the mid to late 90's I saw anyone doing more than the standard applications. So I submit, it wasnt a case of being too stupid to figure it out, as opposed to never really even considering figuring it, or that it actually could be! Yes, I know you feelings, as, as you say, I ran your articles in Totally TKD mag.. I asked really so others can read your viewpoint as well Thanks, Stuart
I took it as it came across, that you were referring to some guys who train in Okinawan Karate (and/or Kung-Fu). Sure. Thats why we're chatting about it. But, I don't have the stuff you need/want to remove your skepticism and i`m not trying to convert you or anything, so I am not going to invest time trying to provide it. First of all, lets get rid of the 'too deadly' stuff - no-one here has said that, or anything like that - seems like your bringing it up to draw people into a discussion that isn't there. So, with that out the way, lets talk about 'realistic intensity' and whether it can be shown/trained. So it doesn't get complicated, lets take a very basic application for a low block as an example: Your wrist is grabbed and you use the (your) low block to strike down on the radial nerve with your forearm, while pulling your grabbed hand backwards.. very simple. Do you feel this wouldn't work if someone grabbed your wrist? Can it be trained full power - yes, but after a couple of times, your training partners arm would start hurting. Can it be used at the very start of a 'real' altercation - yes, I cannot see why not - can you? (Obviously, being aware of the opponents other hand is a priority too). If you are 'in-fight' (trading blows, vertical grappling etc.) could it be used if you were grabbed then - yes, I cannot see why not - can you?. Would you use the actual stance? Maybe/maybe not - its not necessary to make it work, it simply bears more weight down, thus increasing the effect. Would you use it if you wern't grabbed? Of course not, you`d punch, kick etc. like anyone else! Theres the 'too deadly' stuff again! I think you have a different view of what pattern applications are than me - they are simply moves like any other moves, but aligned to the context of the moves in a pattern. Take a minor reaping throw for example, there's moves in a pattern that replicate one exactly - if you practice it as that with the pattern move in mind, its a pattern application, but it works the same whether using that thought or just practicing a reaping throw - its the same move! As I said (and as you say), the original concepts were changed/lost/whatever when they went to japan and were not taught from around the 1900's until more recently, when people such as Iain Abernethy, Willie Lim etc. started to show the fruits of their research. Remember, I am refering to the kata of Shotokan (and its off-shoots) as they are what the patterns of TKD are based on/around. I agree, that the 'original' stuff was taught in Okinawa (pre-1900's), but also, that very little info on it existed after Okinawa was razed to the ground in WW2 and the Masters that did know it back then, limited their passing it on when it went to japan, so it became lost/forgotten, until others started researching for more than the commonly taught P/K/B methods. Oh, I'm sure other have done similar.. my point was simply that it didnt really gain much attention until it was popularised by Mr Abernethy etc. I know Master Lim has been doing it for ages before I saw his article back in the 90's. Gavin was Goju, which comes from different lineage than Shotokan, Gary was Goju as well AFAIA. Terry O`'Neil was shotokan, but I don't recall him doing anything other than P/K/B method back in the 80's/90's - in fact I recall him on 'the Way of the Warrior' program (late 80's or early 90's I think) simply doing a block as a block in it! Plus I read a lot of issues of Fighting Arts International and don't recall anything like that in any of them either, though if he was doing that, I would love to see it (or read about it) - whats your source for this info please?. Gavin is also Goju as well AFAIA.. however, for anyone training back in the early/mid 90's - styles rarely crossed and you only read about others in Combat mag etc. In such mags, I saw some of Gary's applied karate stuff, but it was photo's of him doing SD moves and I don't recall them linking them to Kata, but they may have come from there as I don't know the Goju kata myself. It might be me however, as I got into martial arts about 1984 and none of the books I have from that around that time show applications as we are discussing them now, nor did the magazines.. but maybe I just missed them! Seen some of Steve Morris stuff and his articles in the mag - maybe it didnt click with me if he was doing that, seemed like an early MMA pioneer to me! My point was (and remains) simply, that this type of in depth study is fairly new at least for the UK Martial Arts scene IMO (but by new, I mean the last 15/20 years - with TKD its less than 10). Even if certain instructors did similar (TKD had the same), these were few and far between and it wasnt in the public eye like it is now. My point is invalid to you because you want to see stuff 'in-fight'.. but for me to show you stuff 'pre-fight' that would be hard to set up for filming, as I`d need to tell the partner what we were doing and then it wouldn't be natural and would be more like a demo, which is what you don't want to see! Probably not explaining that well, but I know what i`m trying to say lol Training anything properly is the same as anything else, drilling it over and over. We have gone through this in a previous post, so not gonna type it all again. Are you trying to draw me into something!! As I said, they are not there (on video) for certain reasons (my guesses as to why not in my previous post). I guess someone could video something like that, if whatever was going on was the right format to use one, but that is not the same as saying 'use one in a full contact fight' - as again, we have gone through this. You said that you felt the first forms were based on natural human movement and all the rest have become further removed from that - AFAIA the first forms came from the exercises Bodhirama gave the Shaolin monks and thus, should look like natural human movement if you are correct - yet they don't really! Stuart
Badger Ladder, Getting bored of going round in circles, so gave some thought to what you are looking for, then remembered Iain Abernethy's 'Kata Based Sparring' DVD. Have you read this: http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/kata-based-sparring - maybe its what your looking for or close. Here's a karate club doing some that I found on YouTube: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uffPnW6rQwM&noredirect=1"]katabasedsparring - YouTube[/ame] Stuart
Badger Ladder, Another video for you. Its not exactly what I wanted but will have to do. I remember a while back now one of my students showed me part of a UFC fight, where the fighter did whats in this video during the fight. I can't find that video (maybe someone will remember the UFC match), but its exactly the same application I have in Hae Sul 2 for the following move in Hwa-Rang tul (patterns). The move is: Hwa-Rang Tul - #25. Move the right foot to C in a sliding motion forming a right L-stance toward D while thrusting to C with the right side elbow. Now watch the video and (until he takes the guy to the ground) you`ll see it the exact same movement, stance and all. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ9Ux4mzVHo"]Judo standing arm lock - YouTube[/ame] I`ll try and find the UFC clip for ya. Stuart
You said looking at this stuff is relatively new. Now its changed since I have justified that it is not relatively new. New became 10 to 15 years. That's a strange "new" to me. Then it's 15 to 20. Then it's that it was newly popularised. I can't keep up. I've even named people. I can't do much more. Believe it or don't. It is I who has to bow to your superior knowledge it seems. I'm not trying to draw you into anything. How confusing is saying it can't be seen on clips but it can be shown?....What? I was trying figure out that means. Seriously...monks?
The article has truths, half truths and non truths. That their are truths does not justify the half truths or non truths, but people will use those truths to do just that. Confusing eh HahA.( for more details see my book and DVD) Groundwork from katas..mmm a truth, half truth or non truth?( for more details see my book and DVD). The clip I must say is not bad. It looks like a bunch of guys pummeling, with bits of hand fighting and some knees and things going in. I don't see how it shows actual apps or how it's fits with apps being a pre curser to fights though...it looks more in fight. It goes along more with what i was saying that chambers are clinch/hand fight/ pummeling. So I don't know if your agreeing with me now or what. The thing is if I showed wrestlers or thai guys ,who do it better and who would be a better source to go to,doing a similar thing I have a feeling it would not get as well received. Also knowing that Abernethy has trained in MT I would suggest it's influenced his ideas and his knowledge of that training has been put in to enhance the kata sparring rather than learnt directly from the kata.
Like you said to me, we covered this earlier so I won't repeAt myself too much. So because that move resembles in some ways a move in a pattern ,that must be that app? Crazy. Your making it up as you go along based on anything bearing a resemblance. Let's just make it a free for all. I'm not fooled. Sorry.
To me, it is new, it still not mainstream at all, but its a lot bigger now than it was a decade ago.. but still minor in the grand scheme of things IMO. Yes, I admit, I`m crappy with timelines when I`m writting off the cuff, anything in the 90's seems 10 to 20 years ago to me, apologies for not counting back the years. Anyway, back when I started martial arts (1984) and TKD properly (1991) there was no information on this type of stuff that I saw and groups rarely trained with each other (it was the days of the Federations) and styles rarely crossed, if at all - so if a Goju guy was doing stuff, very few would have saw it, unless it was published in a magazine or a book came out - remember, there was no internet back then!. So here's a small timeline for you: 1994/1996 - Not sure which, I just remember seeing an article in TKD/KMA mag (or Combat) that had Master Lim showing 'alternative' applications to pattern moves. (Thats 20 odd years ago ) 2001 - Iain Abernethy released his first book 'Karate Grappling Methods' (thats 13 years ago). After that, it started to grow to where it is today. If you have stuff that show's 'applications' prior to that, I`d be very interested in it. I have Karate books that I brought in the 90's (Nakayama, Oyama etc.) and none of these show any applications in the form we are discussing here, if you do, please name them. I have a book from 2000 (although I got it later, thats the 1st edition date), by Elmar Schmeisser, who AFAIA was the first guy to publish a book on Kata Applications (as its sole focus and from the beginning to the end of a Kata). So where is all this information pre-internet and pre-mid 1990's? AGAIN, I didn't say 'can't - I just said there isnt clips AFAIA - why do you keep repeating stuff that I have responded to clearly, yet still twist my words! Thats what you implied in your early post Stuart
Yeah, whatever! Either expand on what your saying or don't. Its not confusing, just looks a bit idiotic and brings nothing to the discussion. (No offense intended) I`m not agreeing or disagreeing with you, I was just trying to find the clip from the DVD and found that instead. I was simply trying to appease your appetite for needing to see something more 'in-fight'. I should at least get a star for effort! Yes PLEASE - show me a video clip of a wrestler and a Thai guy doing some 'free-flow' stuff trying to include moves from their kata - thanks. Oh yes - that must be it. :bang: Stuart
Again, I made an effort to find something to help satisfy what you wanted (things I dont have myself and are rare, if exsistant at all in the context you require). And you have things the wrong way round, I showed that move (I wanted the UFC video clip really), to show that an application 'could' be used in the way you want. I didn't find the application from that clip, the clip came after I released a book showing the possible application to the elbow in Hwa-Rang - a link was emailed to me maybe a year later, to show me how similar it looked to the application and it was applied in a sport contest/real time, just like you want! See, even though I am not trying to convince or convert you, I went the extra mile for you and by your reaction, I don't think anything will good enough for you TBH. Funny thing is, even though I don't know you, how long you`ve done MA's, what styles etc. (except that you did TKD once), you bang on about the fundamentals all the time, but missed the fundamental premise for why a TKD person finds this area of training and research enjoyable and applicable (even though its been pointed out countless times), but if you accepted that, then a guy with your perceived knowledge could actually add to what I and others are doing a great deal - shame that! Stuart
For anyone reading this, who is actually interested in 'applications' (Boon Hae or Bunkai), here is an interesting (part of an) interview by Iain Abernethy. http://www.karatebyjesse.com/iain-abernethy-karate-kata-bunkai-pt-1/ I found the last part particularly interesting, where he mentions a book by Henri Plee - this book was my very first martial arts book I got, it was brought by my Auntie when I was a teenager I just flicked through the book and there are indeed some applications (4 photo sets only), they are very basic (and all as releases from the same wrist grab) and certainly not in the realms of Abernethy or others works and simply cover single blocks, but not as blocks, but wrist releases. Still, it reminds me of the TKD drill instructors who had similar ideas and never really expressed them and shows that there were people 'thinking deeper' about applications - its just a shame they didnt get bigger sooner IMO. Anyway, read the article, you will find it insightful no doubt. Stuart
Here ya go Badger Ladder, I figured what you really want to see is someone doing kata in a full on fight.. so i have found you the clip to fulfill exactly what you want: 1. Sport Competition 2. Heavy contact 3. Kata only Vs a fighter 4. Kata Application to win fight Enjoy, [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTIu_aWSf6M"]Karate Kid 3 end - YouTube[/ame] :hat:
Well, I for one am glad people are trying to formulate applications to the patterns. I came to WTF Tkd from Keysi, mainly due to finding the Tkd club's teacher to be both knowledgeable and approachable. I was lucky in the respect that he had already started looking into the patterns off his own back-as he had found the depth to Tkd to be somewhat lacking, especially from grades higher than his 2nd Dan. I started on my own path-looking at the first 3 patterns as of yet. I spent many, many days/months looking at other styles and techniques,matching what looked like it would tie up with my patterns. You can see similarities from other styles using similar movements, now bearing in mind I was a relative beginner with only having boxed, done keysi and Lau Gar it was pretty much the only approach I knew. I realised what sort of a mess Tkd was getting into and if I wanted to learn more depth it appeared that I was going to have to take the initiative and try myself. So that's how I carried on, experimenting and trying to decipher the patterns I was learning. Obviously progress was slow So I was glad when the likes of StuartA and SJON started to publish their thoughts. Which is why I don't get the aggressive attitude towards them. Are some of the applications less than perfect? Sure. Do some of them not work for me? Yes. Do I then go and look at them, evolve them to fit me so they do? Yes. As some have mentioned, it is very, very hard to reverse engineer something that may not have had your goals in mind when it was made. You will come up with subpar things. You will fail. but you will also succeed. I'd rather have some success than none-which is where we were at in the "kick/punch/block is all" days. At least now, I have a base and framework to learn off thanks to these two gentlemen. so come on chaps-give 'em a break
