Ancient Hebrew biblical martial arts!

Is that kosher?

 

Actually, he is not the author of those articles. There are a number of them where the writers took some huge liberties. Those articles come mostly at the start of when internet became a big and it wasn't understood how to track those kinds of articles. Some of the articles also simply copy other articles w/o any input from anyone in Abir. There are a few articles where information was provided to them and they did not use it and chose to edit things the way they wanted. This is not something new, and actually also happened to a famous rabbi here in Israel. The only thing that helped was that while the new agency was filming him he had his own people filming the interview. The news agencies version came out and the cut a large portion of what he said and rearranged things he did say for shock value he in turned released the full version, but of course the damage had already been done since he didn't have the same outlet they did.

For example, there was article written about me once on a site I had never heard of and w/o any input from me on the content. They changed several details to suit their own purposes and when I called them out on it they initially refused to correct it. It took a lot of pressure and time until they finally agreed to take it down. They eventually just changed it a bit and made it seem as if I was being unreasonable for telling them that their article was in-accurate and showing them why. In the internet age these do happen.

 

Ehav4ever

Is there anything that would change your mind about Abir, or does your faith in it/him exclude taking any criticism seriously?

 

Not avoiding the issue, just responding to the issues. Avoiding it would mean not addressing it. If something is not a part of, or accepted as, the martial arts community it obviously can’t be a martial arts. Not everyone who does something, or poses, or wears matching cloths is accepted as or defined as a martial arts. Besides, there are poses that show up our site which are exact same poses that Jews have done for generations while dancing. Our current official uniforms for the last 6 years have been in the same style as clothing worn by Jews and Muslims in south-eastern Yemen. Further, not everyone who fights or practices it, for whatever reason, is a martial artist.

The meaning of the term, martial arts, belongs to those who penned it and the ability for someone to claim to be a part of it belongs to those who are the gate keepers of it. We are neither.

Yes, we know that he ran a KSW where he taught KSW and not Abir. Even his students from KSW claim that he did mention to them anything about Abir because it wasn’t relevant to them. When the time came for him to train Abir as outside of the martial arts format he did so and did not continue to teach KSW. That is why he is not listed as an Israeli instructor of KSW anymore.

Also, he is a person who has taught KSW which those inside of KSW and outside of KSW consider to be a martial art. Again, no one in KSW associates their martial art with Abir nor has he. He is also not the only one who claims to know about Abir or to have practiced it, in several of our videos he and his father are doing it together. Our Hebrew site contains that information but also our Q&A listed several other Jewish communities that had aspects of Abir such as the Jews of Dagestan, Tirdema, etc. He is simply the first person to go public with it to the English speaking world and the most visible.

In terms of him being a life-long Martial Artist that would only matter if he were the only person who knew about and had a tradition about Abir. As we show on our site, he is not. Further, being a life-long martial artist would mean him being involved in the accepted martial arts world and being accepted as a valid martial artitst.

What you are saying is similar to saying that a person’s trade in carpentry that the learned from their family, and they are the most well know at, is instead plumbing because he learned how to be a plumber from a school. A plumber may say that a carpentry is not a good trade and is a flawed trade. Never the less carpentry is not plumbing and a carpenter would not agree that he is a plumber even if someone wants to say he is.

Our site is the “official” word on what Abir is, online, 3rd to ancient and authentic Jewish sources about Abir.

 

Again evasion, and word games

Interestingly the same approach as used by another recreated art, stav.

So again I ask what would make you change your mind? Or is your faith so strong in Abir, that you cannot change your mind?

 

Please answer the above question, without using semantic arguments to avoid the main point.

 

Yes, actually there are things that would change my mind.

If someone were to show me an ancient and authentic sources which disproves the following:

1) That we Jews ever had a mesorah tradition, as I described earlier.

2) That all the information from the various Jewish communities that also state the same tradition is incorrect, or made up by them.

3) That any Jew anywhere carried on any of these traditions into the modern era.

4) That what we currently teach doesn't come from any of the above.

I am not a main of faith in most areas. When I first heard about the school of Abir that he is leading I did two years of research within my Jewish communities, and others, and in Jewish ancient and more modern sources. That is why I Hebrew site has improved from the way it was in previous iterations.

I research things very carefully and is the reason that I have open to the comments here no matter direction they come in or what form they have taken. It also why I have responded in details rather than emotions. As a Jew I am required to not go by faith and to take all criticism seriously.

I have taken all of the criticism on this site seriously.

 

I answered your question above. I live a number of time zones away from you. It does take time sometimes to respond to several different people's comments.

 

Occam's razor - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why did he learn and teach KSW to such a high level if he was actually trained in abir, is that more likely then he just repackaged KSW and maybe mixed in some older skills his grandfather taught?

If that were true, (as has already been printed in published books about Abir) would that stop you from wanting to train in it?

Also can you not see the 'martial art' semantic argument is simply a way to deflect criticism from the wider 'hitting people' community.

 

This is the Nub of the debate, what proof have you that the tradition is extant and without change?

We have a background of other arts that look similar, and published books calling him a recreationist, what proof backs up his most recent story?

Also you say 'we teach', are you an Abir instructor?

 

In terms of why he trained in KSW to such a high level. From his own personal perspective to see if he could do it. As you know only the most dedicated of people make it to the highest level of anything. Also, those who instructed him in KSW provided him an environment to not compromise on his necessary way of life as a Torah based Jew. Also, he at one time did work in training different law enforcement/military agencies in Israel. The requirement back then was the need to be at a high level of something they recognized.

Abir up until recently had only been involved in local middle eastern regional conflicts. We Jews, in various parts of the world have taken some major hits in the various lands we were dispersed to. Up and until the modern era Jews educated their children in a particular type of setting but in the modern era that setting has become more and more difficult to maintain as our parents and grandparents entered the modern world. In Yemen, for example, the Jewish communities at one time got into a major internal struggle about the issue of using modern educational methods to teach science, math, language along with traditional Jewish cultural subjects.

By like token in order to teach Abir outside of a family group one needs to know how to teach it. There is an ancient Jewish sources that points to our ancestors learning how the Canaanites performed war-fare in order for us to know how to deal with potential extreme interactions with them.

In terms of Abir being mixed with KSW. The litmas test for that would be: Once someone has seen the whole system and how it is taught, detailing how much of it is what his grandfather and father taught him and how much of it is KSW. Since running away, escaping, kicks, punches, wrestling, and joint locks are not the patent of any person or group one would have to say that for example 80% of what is going here is [fill in the blank] and how it is taught is 80% [fill in the blank]. Further, if ancient and authentic Jewish sources describe running away, escaping, kicks, punches, wrestling, and joint locks in the way they are done in Abir classes then that would present something to be a part of the discussion. That to me would be the best litmus test for something like that.

Further, if he were to have been a licensed KSW instructor out repacking KSW as something else he invented that would put him in the hot seat of KSW as an organization. Further, KSW guys would be out in force claiming he had done so and reprimanding him for it. What he does bring to Abir that didn't exist before is a knowledge of the martial arts. A Jewish person in Yemen or Dagestan didn't have that kind of contact and being that avoiding and surviving conflicts in a Torah based way is the goal it would have been more difficult when faced with the unknown.

Lastly, imagine how different this discussion would be if he and others who train in Abir had experienced the martial arts world, in one form or fashion.

 

Lots of KSW schools have done this, since the KSW franchise agreement forced out a very large amount of schools, most just rename the art as the hapkido variety it is.

So he trained till 7th dan, from childhood, to see if he could, plus so he could teach abir in his 40's.

Really would you say that's very likely?

I really enjoyed this article too:

Self-defense, King David-style?

I enjoyed the claims about bruce lee and naomi cambell!

Also could you clarify about what the wingate certificate is, and what it isn't?

Because abir seems to be saying that the certificate means abir as an art, has been assessed as authentic, however multiple sources say this isn't what the wingate does.

I will also be emailing them for their views and posting it here, so try to be accurate.

Thank you.

 

We never claimed that anything in Abir never changed. We clearly state on our web-site in both Hebrew and English that Abir went through stages of development. The more ancient aspects of Jewish culture have been kept in certain communities because of isolation. A large number of Jewish communities in the world were isolated, at varying levels, from non-Jewish communities. Thus, the way that a Jew in Yemen, Morocco, China, or Germany is mostly the same. Even most Jewish communities that were isolated from each for 2,000 ore more years share much of the same background information.

The proof I mentioned was in Jewish sources past and present. That is why I responded early on by posting something in Hebrew. I was informed by the admin that I was not allowed to do that. There are sources in Jewish texts such as the Talmud that describe how Abir is taught today.

Concerning what looks "similar" I posted an answer to that above and it is covered on our web-site. In short, the human body can only move in so many ways. A kick can only be varied upon in so many ways. It doesn't mean that one person learned how to kick from someone else. There are Egyptian murals that show wrestling similar to how modern wrestlers wrestle. That doesn't mean that modern, or past, wrestlers learned from the Egyptians. It just means that people have been wrestling for thousands of years and there are only so many ways you can wrestle and only so many ways to do so successfully.

Yes, I saw the book you mentioned. A few problems with it that I didn't see the book. Did they correctly "translate" what he meant by recreate? Did they even interview him or did they find something on-line and used their own wording. I didn't find that information in the book. Also, we provide sources from knowledgeable experts on Jewish history who state what he states about his family, and other Jewish communities, confirming what is taught to be what ancient Jewish sources are talking about and how it got to the modern era. I provided a link to that information but again those indivisuals who wrote it wrote in Hebrew. Someone who reads Hebrew can confirm what that wrote and since their contact information is found there also they can be contacted concerning what they wrote.

Yes, I am a local instructor in Abir and there are others in other areas. I am also the person who manages the new web-site in place of the older versions which were done by 3rd parties.

 

Now you see I'm not trying to be the top dog here but I'm at the end of my tether. I find your arguments just don't come up to scratch.

Oh look....I just used three terms with objectionable linguistic origins (as they have their basis in blood sports and animal torture) that have since taken on wider meaning and different context removed from their origin. As words and language do. The term "martial arts" has outstripped its origins.

There is no actual "martial arts community". There's no governing body decreeing that "this" or "that" is martial arts or not. You're making that up to distance yourself from it. Some people accept some things as martial arts and not others. Western boxing and wrestling for example are often not seen as martial arts and yet, by any metric or comparison with other things that are martial arts then those two things are too. Martial arts is a broad category and you don't get to opt out if what you do fits the definition.
And let's be clear the videos of your style show defence against kicking and punching and knives by using joint locks, strikes, throws etc.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and has duck DNA then it more than likely belongs to the family Anatidae.

WE are the martial arts community and we're saying your art should get no special consideration as somehow being outside of the martial arts community.

 

So you agree abir may have KSW derived techniques in it?
From your grandmasters long training in said art, (7th dan is listed online).

 

Ehav4ever, is this your abir blog =
Hochmah and Musar: The Chronicles of Ehav Ever: The Way of the Israeli Warrior

Because it has your name all over it, your the blog owner, and you call abir a martial art on it?

 

Hahah..there's a lot of heavybags in that non-martial arts gym. It's almost as if they might be learning how to hit people.

 

Ehav4Ever

its your pastime - you get to define it. I understand that there is a religious, cultral, and historical aspect to what you do. I recognise and acknowledge the importance of this. however i am confused.

will you please tell me what the physical interaction between the individuals shown on the videos is for? What it the intended learning outcome for the students?

 

Yes, I did when I didn't know much about it. Again, as someone from the outside looking in and reading about it from "English sites" that is what I thought and that is the way I "personally" termed it. As I learned more from people who had a history with it I learned better. As I told you earlier. I spent several years investigating before I trained in it and when I finally did start learning I had to learn it from people in the class and not from English articles written with no input from those who were official members of the Abir course.

 

So whilst you were learning it, you also called it a martial art?