An alternative style vs style thread?

Just a random thought, their has been a thread in the Kung Fu section on the lack of Wing Chun/San Shou people in MMA tournements. It has (inevitably) degenerated into people (or a person) who know nothing about an art other than their own making sweeping generalizations of the other arts. It got me (as a novice Chunner) contemplating posting on the side of the MMA argument.

So how about a style vs style debate where you have to take the stance opposite to your chosen art/arts.

Any takers?

Paul.

 

TBH I think the only reason the style vs style threads go on at all is because people want something to discuss on here, and that is the most obvious thing. Most people I meet in real life who do martial arts don't actually slag off other martial arts at all.

 

Imaginary fights , here we go again.

If you want to know about style vs style invite people from other styles to your dojo and spar with them (and i don't want to hear about sparring has rules and crap).

You'll learn stuff that a thread won't teach you in a lifetime.

What's with everyone and his style anyway? MA is not football. Stop worying about it and train more. Who cares what other people say about what you do? These types of comversations are too low for serious people.

 

*Claps*

 

Erm, did you even read the post?
I suggest you read the actual post rather than simply assuming what people are trying to do.

Who suggested imaginary fights? I am all for trying some sparring with other people once I have gained a slight amount of proficiency with my own art, I don't think that 10 weeks of training will really cut it do you?

I was suggesting that if people look objectively at other arts and learning about them, rather than simply bashing them. The learning is done by the person posting for an art rather than just someone reading the post (you should take most posts on any forum with a grain of salt anyway), as to debate for a subject that you know little about will require some actual research rather than spouting a loud of stuff you read on a forum somewhere.

I agree completly, it does seem to be the obvious thing. I just find that they often seem to degenerate into people defending their own art and ignoring the benefits of other arts. I was simply trying to suggest a format where this is less likely to happen and people might actually decide that after looking a bit closer into another art that they might

a) Like to give it a try.
b) Realise a weakness in their own art that they had ignored.


Paul.

 

Of cource i've read the post. It's nothing personal Paul but these kind of threads (and i've seen a lot of the kind) always turn up to be imaginery fight threads. My post was a bit aggresive but it wasn't towards you , its just something i wanted to say.

-I would use my air side kick to the temple, i've heard that people have died from that.
-If we where in an elevator?
-I would use chi.
-I would use muay thai clinch and knee to the solar.
-But in my style we have a defence that blocks the knee and dislocates it if someone does that.
-Yes but MT fighters fight with dislocated knees all the time cause they train hard and kick trees

and it goes on forever.

 

Haha, thats pretty funny mate

 

Risking being a troll-bait-taker, I'll bite. I think Taekwondo, as I'm learning it now, is little more than kickboxing as far as sparring goes. Now, I've never had the opportunity to use it in a fight, but those hand techniques we drill like knife/spearhands, palm heels, elbows, and backfists are drilled far too seldom to be actually useable to anyone short of an advanced student. Sure, yellow belts know how to do them, but using them effectively is hardly taught at all yet. Also, Taekwondo as I'm learning it now is little more than kickboxing as far as real fighting goes. Hell, we crosstrain in Hapkido and Judo just for the self-defense classes.

Maybe it'll get more complicated and interesting as I advance, but for now and for me, it's just as I've described it.

However, I used to do some form of kung fu a year or so ago. Now that was interesting in that hand strikes were just as important as kicking. Also, the self-defense portion didn't have to be taken from a different style. The only downside was that I was being taught something like this: "Ok, do the first short form 10 times, and then bo staff techniques 1-5 80 times each. I'll be back in twenty minutes." I got really, really bored. Or I wasn't mature enough to want to train diligently. I remember liking it enough to really do 1,000 turning kicks when my instructor said they needed more work.

 

what do you mean a little more?

lol thanks

 

Well, I'm at 7th gup, and I'm not very good at more advanced techniques. Therefore, when I spar, it looks little more than kickboxing, what with the front, and turning kicks, and body/head punches.

 

No i mean a little more as better in a way?

Have you sparred with a kickboxer? I've sparred with TDK blackbelts and making a comment about it would just make my post concidered a flame post.

It's ok to compare two styles when you have some experience with both (even by sparring) but it's not ok to make commends like that if you haven't. (if you mean what i think anyway)

 

Ah, my bad. Well, in case a mod's watching, I wasn't flaming anyone, I swear! Anyway, it's little more than kickboxing because I think there's a bigger selection of kicks to work with. I'm the first to admit that I don't know anything more detailed about kickboxing than the kicking and boxing, by the way.
And no, I've never sparred kickboxers, but I've seen video clips. I know: shoddy evidence for my claim, but it's all I've got.

Oh, and yeah, you would have a different impression of TKD if you've sparred black belts. I'm nowhere near THAT level of proficiency.

I can't help but feel as if I'm digging myself deeper and deeper into a reasoning hole...

 

No problem mate , i didn't concider your post a flame post. It's good that you're happy with what you do and i'm happy to hear that you work your hands a lot in your dojo.

 

Thanks

 

I think by "little more than" he meant "not much more than"

 

See? That's why i asked , English is not my native language , sorry d33pthough , thanks WW

 

it's cool

 

I would say that WTF TKD is hopeless, theirs nothing good in their except for the boxing drills we do for punching these days but then my point is that for practical SD you need to go outside the art.

Nothing inherently wrong with the art technique wise but the sparring side of things is unfortunate, especially if you dont have full contact fights under any other rules at your school. You need to emphasise the low kicks very strongly in trainning and drill on pads with all techniques but because their is such heavy emphasis on sparring I think it encourages you to drill on sparring techniques which are nearly all impractical.

Other problem is that WTF patterns are just bad. No other word for it, they dont teach you anything even vaguely usefull till about pattern 5 and they look terrible, no artistic or practical value to them.

Aikido, well after a year of trainning I am told I dont know enough to talk about it in terms of real life self defence, err, enough said really.

 

Patterns are lousy? Which ones? Taeguks, Palgwes, or what? You know there's more than one set, right?

Believe me when I say there's low kicks. It's just more difficult to throw a good low hook kick than it is a high one, so the middle-section and head-height kicks are learned first.

The thing about self defense and wtf-style tkd is that they leave a lot out because hey, they're training for tournaments and you can't use knees, elbows, or open handed strikes in tournaments. Then we'd all look like Thai boxers or kung fu guys, not TKDers.

By the way, what rank are you in TKD? After a couple of years, even with the injury you should at least be around purple/blue belt. I'm pretty sure you know by now that it'll only get more interesting as training goes on, because, irritatingly enough, you gotta learn basics before you can move on. For instance: I'm at orange belt myself, and yet I can do things now that I couldn't have done at yellow, because I didn't know the prerequisites. Like I couldn't do a backroundhouse because my hook kick was ****e. Now I can't do a back hook kick because my backroundhouse is the same way.

You haven't experienced enough of it to say it's all bad except for the boxing drills. I haven't either, except I've seen what a good black belt is capable of and, well, HOLY CRAP!! They're like Bruce Lee on speed! There's the kicking and punching, and everything else you can't use in sparring, but hey: Sparring's not the end-all, be-all anyway.

 

These subjects can indeed lead to flame wars and maybe they're too general to even attempt a logical argument. We are very fond of our own styles, have got our own experience in them, so many reasons to stick with them, and I would consider it logic to defend it against all others who would say anything against it. And you know what .. this is what we do.
Take the TKD branch you've discussed here. Though many people are saying it's not OK and it doesn' work and so on ... there are thousands of people actually training or teaching it. It answers to their own needs, so it's perfect for them. Does it mean they are stupid to train in it and they should leave a loved style to study another they don't particularly fancy just because the world thinks it's the coolest?

For my own perspective.
I train in Shotokan for 3 years now. I've chosen it and love it dearly. I've studied lots of techniques, read a lot (made a website for beginners when I had 3 months of training under my belt). I've discussed many times with my sensei and train as hard as I can. I'm kinda tired to hear my style is crap and I don't train for reality and I do point sparring and katas are detrimental. Before saying general stuff like that, one must really know what's all about. The point sparring is not that .."point" and light. I remember having lots of bruises and concussions from the matches. I've had my jaw busted though I try to protect my face. I've heard countlessly I don't sparr full contact and my style is again crap. Well I couldn't afford a single KO. I wouldn't risk the slightest brain damage as I earn my living using my brain and I really need it in perfect condition. I can't show up at work with busted face, as I am a woman and in my workplace it could lead to a "vacation". So when making fun of those who spar light to mediu contact and care for themselves, try to reason why are they so careful? In order to afford MA some work in "delicate" positions and could lose the job because of such feats.
Don't get me wrong, but I've seen many fighters who can't even speak properly because of lack of education or too many bumps on their head (?). I pride myself with being quite articulate and involved in lots of activities that require a speaking abilities, a high IQ and specialization.
On a second place .. I like all the aspects of my chosen art. God forgive me, I love my karategi, by belt, the etiquette and all stuff. They work great for me and my mates. I'm even willing to wait for another 4-5 years to my black belt (in three years I go only 5th kyu, blue belt ... not because I'm an idiot, just because we've got some strict regime in rewarding belts). Takes a lot of time to get to BB and I have all the patience in the world.
I like the katas and the conditioning. I understand them and make them work.

To make my rant short (wonder how ) we are discussing here styles vs. styles ... and as many before said .. it's deeper than that. We've got to have in mind many aspects ... personal life and needs (some wouldn't train in a certain style if they feel it puts them in any dangers, can't afford injuries and so on), available sports (though I'd like to train in Judo and Aikido .. I still have to find a dojo ... it's the same for many people ... they'd like to train in a style, but there's no place or instructor. There's the other aspect. They started a certain style and they've found it great. Should they leave it just to take a "hype" one? There are also people who started in a style and found out it's not suitable for them .. many reasons .. so they go and find another). A mature decision must prevail all the comments from outside. I'm 25 years old and I think I can say for myself what's suitable for my needs and what not ... so we'd discuss and that's all.

As for the problem we need subjects and that's why we get to these comparisons .. I've seen few people ready to enter some "specialized" talks here. It takes experience and knowledge, but they are lot more benefiting than x style vs. y style. We'd benefit more from serious stuff than to rant all day long why a style is crap and another perfect. When we haven't got anything to say it's better to remember silence is golden (got quite poor from this post).

Sorry again for the interminable rant. I just wanted to pass some ideas and give you subjects for next posts .. even to say I made an awful "essay" :Angel: