Seems like I keep coming across articles or styles that put a lot of emphasis on eye gouging, due to it's practicality, no doubt. But in all reality, how capable are we? Kind of like the "would you pull the trigger?" question when it comes to survival, almost anyone will say yes but once you run some scenarios by them with different threats (say a child with a knife or a pregnant women, which does not change the sharpness of a blade), then you start to get into sensitive subjects. By the way, don't take those questions offensively but it's something that you should always consider and hopefully never face. Violence can be unpredictable. So, it would obviously depend on the situation. A drunk highschooler provoking you into a fight probably doesn't deserve his eyes gouged out but once he comes at you with a broken beer bottle and you lack the proper skill to disarm him, the game has changed. So could you do it? Could you knowingly stick your fingers into someone's mushy, juicy eye. I don't think the difficult part would be initiating the eye poke but rather, possibly freezing once you realize your finger is in someones eye socket? Seeing/feeling eye juice and the opponents bloodcurdling scream (I would imagine it to be that intense) could possibly induce a freeze or just put a whole new twist on things. I thought it'd be cool to research the amount of pressure it would take to destroy an eye, pull it out of the socket, etc., and create some sort of glasses with some substance that would resemble an eye and take turns pokin' at it and getting a better feel for it, literally.... probably been done before and probably extremely awkward for the fake-eye-wearer. Anyways, could you do it? Could your students? Could the timid 5'4" woman learning women's SD or would learning such techniques reduce her capability to fight? (Legality issues can sometimes be as dangerous as the fight itself). Reason I post this is because I'm studying an Ancient art which did involve eye-gouging and just started imagining doing that. Sick, right? So other than that, and morality/legality issues should always be handled before any physical confrontation, what are you or your students truly capable of? Would you: As mentioned earlier, shoot a pregnant women who wielded a knife and had you cornered? First reaction is usually "I'll go for the legs". Okay, well she's too close for a leg-shot. Not so easy now, is it? Use a knife if an opponent was much larger/intimidating? Bite through someone's flesh knowing they possibly had an STD (and many predators do) Just a few things to consider. The list is infinite. Some may find this thread stupid or repetitive but like I said, I think anything that can be handled before a fight should be handled. I just got a kubotan and am still deciding when/where I would use it. I still wouldn't know how to handle an enraging girlfriend who threatened me with a knife. Always consider: you react much differently during a fight. Those eye pokes you mastered against the BOB in class may be much harder on a moving, swinging target when your motor skills are reduced to practically nothing. Anyways, discuss! If you've ever had to use any eye gouging techniques or have performed less due to ethical issues, how did the situation turn out? Hope we get some good posts here!
In a large number of our drills students strike directly towards the eyes. To put this in context, I don't teach head punching and we predominantly strike with the upper inside of the hand behind the knuckles so that the hand is aligned with the wrist. We do not normally hit the eyes, and that is by design. The flinch reflex takes over and the other person twists their head at the last minute giving us a great impact angle with the temple, the top of the head, the jawline etc In normal training these strikes are either done repeatedly or followed by clawing rakes across the face. We do these against pads and we do them against helmeted and visored/caged faces in most classes. The striking with contact to that area etc is so ingrained that I do not believe that students would have problems doing it at all, but the aim is not really to get the eyes, it is to get a better angle on the other person's head and to break their attack focus due to our instinctive protective responses reference the eyes. I have had the dubious pleasure of having RobertMap stick his finger into my eye socket in training, so I know he doesn't have any qualms. :Angel: Best practice in self protection is to have considered and built in variables long before an actual event takes place. Training should be legally underpinned so that student responses are appropriate. The drills taught should be underpinned by an understanding of what happens to human beings under pressure, and have been pressure tested for effectiveness. Questions of motivation and capability should be addressed in self protection training, not in a situation.
Survive as best as you can. If I have to claw, gouge, bite, shoot, stab, slice, choke, strangle, smash, kill, injure or maim I will. More than once I've had to bust a chair or other unyielding object across someone's face to save my ass and I have no qualms about it. Destroying someone's eyes? If I have to and I can then I will. I will do anything and everything necessary to survive.
I have trained with people who have used eye gouging in real life situations but it does require a certain personality type,ie,psychotic.Its a viable technique for compliance once the person has been restrained but as a long range strike its worse than useless as the accuracy simply won't be there when facing a moving target.Far better to rely on a proven technique such as a straight palm to the face or punch to the jaw.If you have your hand on someone's face a thumb in the eye can be used to make some space for the next strike but this is down to the flinch reflex as JWT desribes above. Years ago I read a study done by the US Marines and they could only find two cases of eyes being gouged out on the battlefield.The most recent case i am aware of is in the UK where a deranged individual gouged out his partners eyes AFTER she was unconscious through blunt impact to the head.
I used to train a long range finger strike in JKD, but when I moved onto self defence I found the reality was different, I also could never understand why if you’ve got time to throw your fingers and strike with them, then you’ve got time to throw your palm or fist behind them. After speaking to many experienced guys, bouncers etc the only time they used eye gouges, were when they were tied up grappling etc and unable to throw effective strikes, eye gouges were only used to create space so that they could then throw more powerful strikes or get better positional control. I think it’s also important to remember that a finger in the eye is only a pain compliance technique, doesn’t necessarily mean compliance, I’ve heard a few tales of fingers knuckle deep in someone’s eye and them still fighting on regardless and then even gouging back. Just my 2p worth.
Have never trained to go for eyes or more 'presicion' targets, but one jujitsu instructor I had claimed to have done a hip throw on some one when working, when he put his hand on the side of the guys face to help him over he claims to have taken hold of the guys ear and kept hold as he went over and hit the floor then passed it to the guys friend and suggested he take him and his friend up A&E to get it sown back on.
I have delivered eye gouges only a handful of times. When you eye gouge someone they tend to scream loudly, panic and it takes most of their desire to fight out of them. It rarely ends a fight but does facilitate an easier application of a "fight ended". The recipient in my experience looks like Rocky Balboa after - very bruised, very swollen and sore looking eyes
We pretty much don't train eye goughing for self-defense. However, I may have a different definition than others on what eye goughing is. We have: (1) eye rakes (fingernails rake across the eyes, like waving goodbye, or can also be a finger flicking action) (2) eye pokes (finger or thumb spears the eyes) (3) eye gough (finger or thumb scoops into the eye socket with continuous pressure) Primarily we train eye rakes. My instructor told me a few times how back in Hawaii they could spot a martial artist because they would file their fingernails to a point. this would be idea for effective eye raking. A friend of mine trains a lot of spears to the eyes. Being on the receiving end of a few, I'm glad for my Aikido training to help me avoid permanent damage from spears to eyes. Finger spear deceives on range, being further range than a punch and so what works against a punch sometimes still tags you with the spear. I train a few spears, but mostly I use the motion for ridge hand strikes or strike to the side and then turn it into a eye rake. Spear to the eye using the thumb is a good one on jabs. Pretty much standard dirty fighting. We train this mostly for sport, not self defense... and not to use in sport but to learn to defend against it. The eye gough I don't think I have taught in years. It comes up in grappling every once in a while. An eye gough can lead to permanent damage more likely than eye rakes and eye spears. Although I'm fairly of the opinion that eye rakes have the least chance of causing permanent damage. An eye gough should thus be treated like a submission. Therefore, the saying is position before submission. Only use an eye gough when you are in position to apply it as a submission. IMHO.
Don't forget you can use the chin. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqX_yh_HJU0"]Elvis Sinosic vs Chris Haseman - YouTube[/ame]
That's not the first time I've seen chin into the eye, but this shows how it can be used as a submission.
I think you have to define exactly what eye gouging is.One instructor I trained with left his attacker with serious eye damage that required treatment in Moorfields eye hospital.In fact the attacker said he thought he was having his eye dug out.Brutal most certainly but the attacker was a known thug and regarded as dangerous.
Hi 'Anarch', I have taught biting as a technique for many years (not as the only technique or the first technique - but a valid one in some situations)... There is relatively little chance of getting an STD from biting - but lets assume that you have to bite someone in order to survive but get HIV AIDS - the choice as I teach it, is do you want to die during the initial conflict or die at some unspecified LATER date - personally I'd always go for the later date... So would I bite if I felt it was my only useful option? YOU BET I WOULD !!!
All I will say is that if someone wishes to try and take me to ground in an IRL fight situation, they had better be wearing protective goggles.
In a life or death situation, of course! But I see a lot of people bite in situations that just don't necessarily call for it. My concern would be on when it is appropriate to use it and how to teach students that.
Like any technique it needs to be taught in context. I tend to use a variation on the Use of Force continuum employed by my dept. The big issue I see with them is when they are presented as a panacea or a replacement for actually training
