There isn't much of a difference, it is just that some people in sparring don't protect their head very well, leaving their hands down. This leaves them more open to straight line fast attack such as a jab to the head. A jab is just a technique that happens to be fast and covers good range without telegraphing the attack when done correctly. Yes, I agree. But one should have a way of dealing with different techniques, so discussion of a jab is not a bad thing as long as people keep an open mind. I was pointing out that a jab on the streets is different than a jab in sparring, mainly because of bare fisted verse padded gloves. Yes, agreed again. Any technique such as a jab, is just a starting point from which to build the concept and to perfect the technique. Perfect technique does not help if it is done in the incorrect context, without an understanding of the concepts. Understanding of the concept is just theory unless you have good technique to apply in the context. It comes down to the person to understand the concept and apply the technique.
Um, ok excuse you, I also study aikijutsu in which we do tons of full contact sparring and irimi nage is the best throw ive found against a jab. What expierence to you have to state that it does not work.
I always thought Irimi nage is one of the few aikido "only" techniques that was not found in Takeda's Aiki jutsu. Atleast I thought I heard my teacher say this once. Is it found in there? I was just wondering, thanks in advance. As for the jab subject, I agree with the people here that mention it would be best to take the jab, or "slap" it away and try to control the body, with for instance a irimi nage. At least I would not try to "catch" it anyway .
Rebel i do agree with you. This is a good discussion to have. Perhaps it will help some of the none Aikido participants to understand that because they don't see punches being thrown in an Aikido dojo, that doesn't mean we don't train to deal with these things. I also think a discussion like this has it's pitfalls however. I think it's dangerouse to get an idea stuck in your head about how you would deal with situations like these. Very often reality and what we imagine it to be are very different. Already most people seem to be stuck on an irimi nage. Some people here also seem to think a jab is very difficult to deal with. It isn't. People, including boxers, get caught out with jabs when they let their guards down, lose concentration or get to close too early. It's not the jab that's diffcult to deal with. It's the person on the other end.
I should clarify that when I talk about irimi nage, I really just mean any irimi technique. Deflecting the punch or pinning the punching arm, all included with an irimi. My basic iriminage is to enter in over the top of front arm, using my forearm and elbow to deflect the jab/front hand punch, and executing a palm strike with the same arm to the face of the Uke. They either take the hit, block it, or move out of the way. What follows is context dependent on the situation at hand. Thinking outside of Aikido, most counters against the jab are simple attack the attack. - When the jab comes, strike/block it with your wrist, trying to hit the inside of the arm. - Or, deflection block/parry and back knuckle strike to the inside of the arm (bicep) using the other hand. - Or move/Lean away, deflection/smother block, rising front snap kick (with ball of foot) to the elbow as the jab extends. - Or, deflection block/parry smother, open hand strike to elbow from the outside. Stuff like that to list a few.
I disagree with this. In my experience the only good way to train against something is to train that something to begin with. When my Muay Thai coach decided we needed to know how to defend against the takedown, he made us learn and practice the takedown on each other BEFORE explaining the defenses. Same thing applies to punches. It is impossible to understand the mechanics behind it if you do not practice it yourself. Now, I don´t know what you strange aikido people do behind closed doors, but if it includes trading punches, THEN I would say you are ready to deal with them.
This is true that aikijutsu, at least were I study it does not have Irimi nage in it. but I also study Aikido so I use alot of Aikido stuff when I spar in Aikijutsu.
But you're missing the point. We do train with punches. A very simple straight forward atemi is a punch. The only difference is most Aikido students don't use a closed fist when training. Which is the point I was makeing earlier. If the atemi is poorly taught, then of course the defence and understanding of the attack are going to be weak. Similarly if your Muay Thai coach taught poor take-downs, your understanding of a take-down and response to it would be poor. The question is do you need to learn every possible take-down to gain a decent understanding of what a take-down is, how it works and how to defend against it?
I am not missing the point, but we are in agreement over the rest. Regarding the last question...well, it helps. But it is not necessary, of course.
Forward atemi is not a jab Forward atemi as practiced in many Aikido dojo is not a jab, and if you're doing it with an open hand it's not even a punch. So training against this attack will not prepare you for a jab. The mechanics of throwing it are different, as is the muscle activation and joint alignment in in Uke's arm due to the different hand position. A good jab has more of a snapping or flicking motion to it than does tsuki, and in some cases may have a little backfist action to it. I'm not saying that Aikido can't deal with a jab, just that we'd be fooling ourselves to think that open handed forward atemi is any substitute for training against a real jab. A jab lacks the commitment, and power of forward atemi. It retracts almost immediately, and is considerably more difficult to "catch", lead, or off-balance. Invite someone to youur dojo who can throw a good jab to teach you how to do so (along with a hook, uppercut, and cross). Then you'll be able to throw them well enough to train defenses against them. Bear
a suppossed akido master recently came to our gym and tried to catch my jab. i slapped him about 6 times in the face when he was teaching me how to deal w/ the jab. he couldn't catch a sloth's jab. he then grew fustrated and tried to shoulder throw me by surprise, but i took his back and choked him.
How do you (or did he) define "master" ? Was he a Shihan with at least Rokkudan grade ? Which organisation was this person from ? A couple of things stand out which I find amusing. 1) Anyone with a legitimate claim to be a master of Aikido would not attempt to deal with the 'jab' its self. They would look to deal with the person by some means... 2) Anyone with a legitimate claim to be a master of Aikido wouldn't just turn up and attempt to 'prove' anything (which is what I suspect the person in question was poorly trying to do)... 3) Aikido doesn't have any "shoulder throws" per se (unless the description by the poster is a bit inaccurate)... 4) My congratulations for handing this person his **** by way of shime waza ! The ignorance of some within the aikido community never ceases to amaze me. Dave
this guy was such a dumbass. he also claimed to have sparred fernando vargas and have studied a multitude of other martial arts. he said something about an ateme drill, but i'm not sure what that means; a slow attack perhaps? he spent the entire class failing to impress us with his japanese vocabulary.
Shomen-ate can be delivered at any pace and withdrawn at any pace. We are not Daleks!! I've seen tooo many 'dalek' attacks to even laugh any more Jab with clenched fist, shomen-ate with 'heel palm' - each can test response equally. If landed, damage may be equally devastating to the recipient, but shomen-ate does not smash your knuckles!
Still not a jab All very true, that still doesn't make it a jab. If you've been taught both or been on the receiving end of both you'd know what I mean. I'm not putting down shomen-ate or Aikido (if I didn't value them I wouldn't have spent the past dozen or so years training). Nor am I saying that a palm heel strike isn't effective, just that it's not a jab. Training for one transfers more in principle than reality, when faced with the other. Very few MAs throw a decent jab (and I'm not claiming to be expert at it either) the stylized strikes most of us are taught bear very little relation to what a boxer would throw. Debating whether a palm heel is equivalent to a jab makes as much sense as debating whether it's equivalent to a jump spinning back kick. They're not the same and aren't intended to be. As Aikidoka we'd be better served to admit our limitations, do what we do well and respect that others know how to do things that we do not, and try to train in a way that covers rather than exposing our shortcomings. Not delude ourselves into thinking that it's all the same. For what it's worth, I'm with Dave on the issue of "Masters" showing up in other people's dojo and trying prove anything about Aikido. Your frst big tip-off to his lack of skill is that he'd try to catch a jab in the first place. And for my fellow denizens of the USA, a Dalek is a alien robot thing from the Dr. Who series, that for some reason were a threat to all mankind (or at least Great Britain) despite the fact that they moved approximately one mile an hour, ran into each constantly, and had a pencil thin arm with poor range of motion that stuck out at a useless angle. --Bear
I agree with Dave... especially because this guy was claiming to "catch" your jab... not sure how this guy became a (self-proclaimed) master of aikido but I think he needs to go back to a white belt and actually pay attention to his instructors this time through
Smiling Bear - love the description of the Daleks! Yes - of course both jab and shomen-ate are different, but I wanted to emphasise that aikido does have fast strikes as defensive techniques as well as atemi in attack. It's not the fault of Aikido that atemi is poor - it's bad instruction lacking in an ESSENTIAL element of the art. Aikido strikes should be as hard, fast and as effective as anyone else's. (See the many threads on crap atemi in this forum.) Like many I get fed up with seeing instructors teaching shomen-ate as a straight arm held out for uke to walk on to - he should never see it coming as it shoots up from below his line of vision and takes him off his feet. Never seen a Dalek do that!
Bahahahahahahaha, no that is wrong kiaiki :bang: Actually, I'm just joking with you. I am serious that I do disagree with some of what you say out of principle. The straight in strike is not necessarily bad. I will explain by listing three striking techniques. 1) The jab. The hand and elbow move first towards the target. The hand (weapon) moves first because it is the first thing you want to hit the target with, this also cuts down on any telegraphing of the technique. The jab is fast and straightline BECAUSE the human mind has trouble perceiving distance of a straight in attack. The jab comes straight in, this causes some hesitation as the mind tries to figure out the actual distance of the punch, a fraction of a second, but enough to give an advantage and make the punch appear faster than it really is. 2) The straight in open hand atemi. This is executed similar to a finger jab, the hand and elbow move first. The different between this and a jab comes about the halfway point to the target. The jab continues to accelerate, but the open hand atemi slows down and the wrist begins to bend back. What this does is a combination of two things. The first is that it is straightline so the mind has trouble calculating the true distance of the strike, but by making the hand "very large" and changing the speed of the attack, the target may hesitate and become focused only on the atemi. The reason being is that they first are caught by surprise and the mind quickly calculates the speed of the attack, but the speed changes and the target's mind can be held in limbo waiting for the attack to get to them so they can dodge or block the attack (like how a snake hynotizes its prey). If the atemi hits, tori merely has to bend the wrist back more to strike through the target with the palm. The bending of the wrist changes the angle of impact upwards, this helps to uproot the target. 3) The atemi that shoots up from below Uke's line of vision and takes him off his feet. This is executed more as a circular technique (think uppercut or hook from boxing except with open hand strike, or think chop from karate). This is a "striker's" atemi or something more found in jiu-jitsu than in Aikido, IMO. The palm can strike across the face or chin, and the strike continues with the arm (similar to a clothesline technique), or the palm can strike across the face or chin, and the strike continues with the forearm or elbow (similar to a forearm or elbow strike). The purpose of these strikes is to stun and damage the Uke, if it is used to uproot Uke, that is a side effect of the force of the hit. Feel free to correct me or make comments. I did not attempt to list every variation, only to address these three variations of atemi.
Ah, I see now why we differ - the technique varies a lot between our styles. I'll try to explain why I see shomen-ate as similar to other fast strikes: It seems we do it very differently in Shudokan Aikido. Our style (maybe because it is Yoshinkan derived) does not perform shomen-ate as a circular motion - linear motion predominates as this is very much meant as 'applied' technique - jutsu if you like, but that is what Shioda taught - attack using the centre line as quickly and efficiently as possible. There is no 'telegraphing' of the intent in, for example, a freestyle jiyuwaza session - uke knows how to attack but has no idea what will be used as defence. This strike is straight up and in hard under the chin. I've seen what you describe in clubs offering 'traditional' aikido but didn't even recognise it as shomen-ate until they told me what they called it - that's how much it differs. Neither is wrong, just different. Hope that explains why I see both jabs and other atemi as similar - our style is much more akin to that. If an experienced student is performing on an equally good uke, if that uke is not quick to respond, even in the dojo he will be seriously hurt unless tori is very quick to 'pull' the strike. One of our BB's used it against a broken bottle attack when working as a doorman and the attacker was seriously injured as his head cracked down on a cobbled street, having been taken clear off his feet. I've also used it and it is very 'street effective'. I've also seen this done with a half closed hand as opposed to fingers extended, which adds a little to the rigidity of the heel of the hand. I'll try to point to a reference to show how it is taught to us Not much in print but Shioda's book Dynamic Aikido shows a SD application: 'Straight blow: ....Using the heel of his hand he delivers an upward blow to uke's face'.
