Aye, good clarification. The contrast with aikido is still there, but, good point. There are defenses from the kneeling position, but it's not like the mat work of BJJ or sambo or judo, if that's what you're thinking of.
This is not as black and white as it seems. 'Grappling' to me implies a competitive struggle for control. 'Groundwork' does not necessarily mean this. I think that Aikido has several 'groundwork' techniques. Personally, I would say that the pins which are commonly used in Aikido to control an attacker on the ground may be construed as 'groundwork', albeit that they sometimes assume the Tori (defender) has controlled the Uke (attacker) and taken him to the ground as a finish. Having done a bit of Judo, when I started Aikido I recognised some of these Aikido 'pins' as akin to Judo groundwork holds and pins - one adjustment if using them for competitive Judo would be, for example, to avoid wrist locks and keep to the elbow and shoulder locks and controls. See 'Total Aikido' by Gozo Shioda for pics and descriptions of these pins. Not all Aikido styles or clubs teach the same curriculum and you may well find groundwork being taught in some Aikido clubs, as well as striking techniques etc. In terms of Self Defence there is a great deal in Aikido which can be used to control someone on the ground, with useful applications for the police and 'door' staff. Should an Aikidoka be unfortunate/unskilled enough to end up in a fight which has gone to the ground and left him vulnerable (maybe flat on his back) , I do concede that those with no other MA training may well be at a disadvantage compared with a BJJ or Judo student in the same position. No MA has it all and I've always supported cross training in complementary arts. If you're really lucky an Aikido club will already have guys with previous experience of Karate, Judo, Iai etc to share some of their expertise.
I think the reason for this is competition. When you have to go up against competent opponents all the time, you need whatever edge you can get. If you don't do this, you can afford to turn a comforting blind eye to the advantages of strength. I don't think the art of judo is any more reliant on strength than aikido is in this respect, if aikido was a full contact competition art you'd see stronger people doing it more.
If I think of the pins used in Aikido as submissions rather than to control uke then they become more applicable to "groundwork." I've found that pins are sometimes taught to control uke, such as if you want to keep uke down to hand cuff them. However, from a ground fighting perspective, take something like the pin used to finish from Ikkyo. I like this pin very much but in reality I only have control of the elbow and arm of the uke. Uke is free to move any other part of his/her body. I really do not control all of uke and to try to immobilize all of uke from there, especially if uke is a good grappler/wrestler, really could be impossible and to do so could put me in a worse situation. If I concentrate on not trying to immobilize uke, but rather to control just the part of the body I need and put uke into submission, then although uke can still move the rest of his body, that arm I have control of is going to be hurting/injured if they resist. If pins in Aikido are trained for submission of uke, I feel that training is not complete but is of use in ground fighting. If pins in Aikido are trained for immobilization of uke, that training could be useful in arrest of a more compliant uke (such as police work), but is not adequate in the ground fighting sense (street fight). It is nearly impossible to really immobilize uke more than a short period of time -- any decent ground fighter or someone much stronger and bigger will be able to get out of it.
judo states it uses leavage and positioning<-- where the phook is the leavarge and positioning in wrestling wit someone? its like u hit me i hit u back and see who giv eup first. now akido omg, true essense of leavarge and positioning even thou akido look wack, i could imagine seeing my self get woup by them by snapping my wrist....
...An educated guess is that you've little to zero Judo and likewise Aikido. Aikido does not use "leverage" as a core principle, although what constitutes 'leverage' may well be a side debate however, Judo DOES.
Leverage? Leverage in martial arts equates to pressure, and pressure can be measured in pounds per square inch (PSI). If I lay on top of someone, I'm applying some pressure but because I'm spreading my weight over a large area, I'm not exerting much pounds per square inch. This is not really using leverage. If, however, I learn to put 90 percent of my weight on to their solar plexus, that's a lot more pound per square inch, they will have a very hard time breathing. Another example, if I apply 90 percent of my weight on to the side of their neck, they might be choked out. I would say every martial art uses the concept of pound per square inch (pressure) particularly Judo and Aikido. Aikido pins and joint breaks on the ground are going to be putting a lot of pressure on uke in a small area. Judo is going to do the same when they want to submit or choke out someone on the ground. When it comes to taking someone down (from standing), there is more to it than just pounds per square inch because the target isn't braced against a wall or the ground so when you apply pressure, they can move with it. So there is added factors in getting the majority of the target's weight over one spot without their feet under them, from which point the rest of their body will follow and they will fall to the ground (this is better called unbalancing or using gravity to aid technique).
Pins are often not what they seem, Simple. Even the ikkyo (ikkajo) pin is capable of stopping someone from moving the rest of his body IMHO. Remember we're not 'straining' to hold their arm down, we are sinking our weight onto it & the slightest adjustment (e.g. raising the wrist while keeping the elbow pinned) soon shows uke the painful consequences of struggling. Similarly, shiho-nage, taken down to a pin, looks easy to escape from by rolling feet over head. It isn't if applied by Tori tight against his own foot, with a slight outward wrist twist and Tori's weight pushing through his leg towards Uke's head. (Clumsy description - see 'Total Aikido' by Gozo Shioda). IMHO as is often the case in Aikido, a complete understanding of what is going comes when a technique is felt as well as observed.
Good points kiaiki. When it comes to pins in Aikido, I have been taught that there is a set sequence of things that must happen in a set order. For instance, spacing is important and before pin, tori must have the technique to close in the gaps (not leave any extra space for uke to escape), second is control of uke (extend or collapse uke so they will go with the technique), third is positioning (be in the right place at the right time to execute technique), fourth is technique (using the right grip, hooks, etc. to apply the right technique), fifth is leverage (top of the lever, maximum force applied to smallest area). At least that is the order that pops into my head, I may have missed something. Anyway, so even if I have good positioning and even if I have control of uke, if I did not first close up all gaps, I will not be able to pin. First comes the closing up of gaps. I must do these things in order, if I miss one of them then I need to start over at the beginning and work from there. If I instead miss something out of order and try to force the technique, chances are the technique will be sloppy and leave opportunity for uke to counter or escape. My opinion is that if pins are focussed on immobilization rather than submission, then the Aikido student may be falsely led to believe that is the intention of a pin. I believe the intention of a pin should be submission. My reasoning is behind some training I did with a 400-pound uke. One of my favorite pins is from Ikkyo. I was able, after a while of working on better technique to apply the pin on the 400-pound uke (who was a lot of muscle and could curl more than my body weight). I had learned various ways to apply the pin from bringing uke down to dislocate their shoulder on the way down to the gentler Aikido variant. The Aikido variant, IMHO, was the only one that really worked against the larger uke, breaking his shoulder might work, but frankly was very difficult to apply because of the size difference. Now I said I got the pin to work, yes I successfully immobilized uke... but it was only temporary. Eventually, I had to realize that I only had uke pinned at one point, the rest of his body really was still free to move. Although I managed to get it so that uke could not move his arm, I was totally helpless to prevent him from moving other part of his body and as a result, he was eventually able to move enough to position himself to power out of the pin. The only time I could stop him was to apply a submission lock from the pin, start to break his arm at the ligaments, then he complied. I've seen some Aikido training stop at the pin and not force uke to tap out. I don't think that is good training past beginner, advanced levels should know how to dish out the pain and make the break if necessary, IMHO.
Whilst pressure can be measured in PSI, I don't agree that leverage can be entirely described as such, especially if we're attempting to equate that to aikido principles. Absolutely, you are applying weight distributed over a given area. True but "leverage" implies a degree of movement against something else (either static or moving) application of weight to a specific point (neither of which are moving) still doesn't constitute leverage. Maybe so but; not in the way you describe, aikido does not rely upon it's students to apply their weight as a means of leverage, yes there are obvious and very easy applications where weight may be used but it is not a core principle. Only if you wish to achieve a submissive state on a person who isn't resisting, *correct* application of kansetsu waza will almost certainly see the resisting uke feel pain long before tori thinks about placing their own 'energy' into an immobilisation. - That is after all the primary tenant of Aikido kansetsu waza; The weight or energy of uke through their own joints which have been immobilised (they’re the one's moving, not us) Regards
Remember that Aikido should be a means of "conflict resolution with violence" Ikkyo ude osae is essentially a guiding principle leading to other methods of immobilisation. I can assure you I wouldn't even bother with "ude osae" as a means of pinning someone because, as you pointed out, their body is essentially free however; katakatame is a very effective means of immobilisation, can be very quickly achieved from all manor of applications. One thing which I stress to my students in respect of kansetsu waza is this; they exist to provide several ways of achieving the same objective, that is; to render your opponent prone on the floor where you have greater advantage of holding if that is the appropriate action. Kansetsu waza aren't specifically designed IMHO to be used as tools for gaining a submissive tap, yes they bloody well hurt if you resist them but that's specifically my point, people who resist applications of ikkyo, nikyo etc hurt *themselves*. I think its fair to say that not all of the pinning techniques used in aikido would effectively work on every variation of the human body however, I also think its fair to assume that at least one of them would, its up to the person applying them to use the right 'tool for the job'. I understand your sentiment, and I too expect my students to understand how to achieve a submissive reaction from uke however, see my opening statement. Kind regards
Thanks for the reply Dave. I can see how I generalized a bit too much. Yes there are ways to immobilize. I sat on my son and wrapped him up in a knot, and he could not escape (although he could still bite me...lol). This was just fun wrestling, actual techniques would be more effective. My issue with the idea of immobilization is on the self-defense point of view. For police and against someone that is not a lot bigger or is smaller, it is something that might come in handy. My issue is with teaching the immobilization and not the break for women and smaller people. They need technical detailed work on how to submit and break, IMHO, for self-defense. Like you said, the right tool for the job. I really find it hard to picture a 100 pound woman immobilizing a 250 attacker, even with pain compliance and even with good technique. The option of break needs to be viable.
I don't entirely disagree with what you write however; from a traditionalist's point of view Aikido isn't particularly "self defence" orientated. Indeed I would go so far as to say that in a scale of 1 to 10, self defence rates in the low half of the figures. If however we were talking about an aikijujutsu ryu then I would agree totally with your comments. The principles behind Aiki"do" work fine in self defence applications however this is because they are essentially the same as those found in schools of jujutsu where, attitudes toward their opponents are somewhat more aggressive. Regards as always
Would you post a picture of katakatame? I don't know that name and couldn't find a picture with google.
One important difference between judo and aikido is the size of the circle that is made. Typically the circle in judo is very small around tori's centre. This makes the technique very powerful with uke being directed downwards. Some styles have aikido have very large circular motions. However if the circle is made smaller in aikido then power can be added to the technique.
