I think we can say without doubt that some Daito Ryu teachers may place more emphasis on the philosophy and others less emphasis. In that respect Daito Ryu is no different from Aikido or any other martial art. With Daito Ryu and Aikido specifically in mind, from what I can see they have very similar philosophies. Although I do think Aikido takes the philisophical element further, I don't think it goes any further than many Chinese arts. I also don't think the majority of Aikidoka delve that deeply into the philosophy. At least not until they have been practicing for a while. It's certainly not someing that's taught reguarly in the dojo. So far as circular or linear movement goes I take it as horses for courses. In other words you use what fits. Which also happens to be what I'm taught. The explanation my teacher often gives is something like. "If you find yourself standing in the middle of the road while a bus is comeing, do you try and stop the bus with all your streghth or do you get out the way"? What that means is if you find your self up against an opponent who is more powerful than yourself then you have to get out of the way. You're not going to be able to enter on the line or just off the line. Linear movement doesn't always work in that circumstance. And that's when you have to do something else. And that is what Aikido does with circular movements. It takes a different approach. Granted the circular movements are big and unrealistic at a basic level. But we all have to start somewhere and when you're teaching what is intialy an un-natural way to move you need to be able to teach it in a manner the student will understand. When the movements are big and obviouse and easy the student can get a grasp of what is going on and refine the movement as they learn. I'm not sure what you mean by the "Jujutsu" element. If memory serves me correctly "Ju" translates as "gentle" or "soft". In martial arts terms I would assume that meant one should apply technique with only the required severity. Which is the case in Aikido. Technique performed by a skilled Aikidoka can be as brutal as you like or it can be very gentle, calm and collected. If Ueshiba hadn't changed the name of what he was teaching several times, Aikido would still be AJJ. I don't know what weapons are taught in AJJ so i can't really comment there. All I can say is within Aikido we use the Jo, Bokken and Tanto. Some organisations will use live Tanto and Katana while others for the sake of safety in competition use foam or rubber tanto. Specifically where I train we learn kata for all three weapons nd incorporate them into our techniques so we learn to attack and defend with them as well. However weapons in Aikido are generally not taught for the sake of learning how to use a weapon but rather to aid in the learning of the un-armed techniques.
That's very true. The idea is to always expect to be attacked from multiple directions. Few muggers work alone and happy slappers always have a gang so it makes sense even now.
Gah! My head hurts. Last night I was teaching class and trying to demonstrate some principle and it didn't work, I figure BECAUSE I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT TOO MUCH. I was trying to analyze what I was doing from how big my circles were to how much tension I was applying to each part of my body. :bang: I sort of forgot there was an uke there while I was doing my own thing. You know, I don't care how big the circle is, as long as I don't have to think about it to get it to work.
How relaxation in technique allows you to move independently of uke and how tension connects you to uke so that you move together. I tried to be extremely relaxed when entangling uke for a hip throw. Then I tensed up to apply the throw. The throw did not work, and it did not help that uke was more than a foot taller than me and just hung on to me like a wet noodle, giving me nothing but dead weight. I ended up "walking" uke around in a circle as he just moved his feet around. I finally just leg hooked him and took him down with a sweep. My timing was completely off because I was thinking too much about what I was trying to accomplish instead of just working whatever technique came. I bascially tried to force a technique. In this case I tried to force a hip throw on an uke that was much larger, hanging on like dead weight, and having never broken his balance. In a sense, on the brighter side, I was trying to show how relaxation can be used to move independently of the opponent yet still stay sticky. As I was saying how to do this, I think uke took it to heart and instead of being tense, uke became like a wet noodle in my grasp and thus took my technique away from me. Maybe I did teach something.
Ahh, whilst I understand what your saying about connection, I'm not altogether sure your thoughts on 'tension' being the means of that connection are correct. I endeavor never to apply undue tension in my body, tension is a part of muscular reflex which means if I'm applying tension, I'm relying on muscular strength to achieve it. Dare I say it didn't function : A- Because you applied undue amounts of tension which severely limited your range of movement and constricted the direction of your circles. B- The moment you began to 'think' about it, it simply had the adverse effect upon fluid action. C- Contact between you and your opponent should be consistent and smooth, the moment you stop (when your tensed up), even for a fraction of a moment, uke will know about it. What you've experienced is known in Japanese as "Suki" a weakness of the mind. You allowed 'failure' to break your concentration. How often do we hear "relax" being banded about in the dojo ? Whilst I'm an advocator of being relaxed, I am often surprised to hear it being used as an excuse for poor technique - "you need to be more relaxed" etc etc However, for all the times we talk about relaxing our body, we rarely discuss or even put into practice relaxing our minds. After all it's our mind which control everything we do so it stands to reason the calmer it is the easier action and reaction should be. Try not to over critique or analyse yourself, just "do" rather than "think" I would also say that perhaps you should concentrate more on the principle of kokyu rather than specific tension when executing technique. A good exhale as you make your application (or indeed a strong kiai) will create the desired effect (as well as scaring the crap out of your uke) BTW what method or style of Aiki do you study mate ? Regards
Any post not on topic from this point on will be binned. This is a general heads up to everybody. Thank you for your cooperation. ---- Edit by AikiMac: You probably noticed that the thread is shorter. Wolfie removed everything (well, nearly everything) relating to the trolling of a certain someone. What remains are the posts relating to the original topic of the thread.
I was taking our AJJ class last night and took the other students through the basic katate dori from various attacks. One student is judo shodan, another is karate godan and very a experienced swordsman, another is an aikidoka, but what i noticed above all (which kind of relates to the above posts) is their tai sabaki and state of tension. So at the end of class i tried to demonstrate the various differences in strength v power (coming from body posture). They were all suitably impressed, seeing as i'm the smallest, yet had no problems taking them all down, and they struggled somewhat. I was trying to show the difference in effectiveness of irimi v tenkan in certain situations and explain the state of tension in their posture as they either attack or defend. I was also trying to explain concepts like 'go no sen', 'sen no sen', which to my delight they started to understand. As i've said before, from studying both aikido and AJJ 'my' experience is that AJJ will favour the directness of irimi to block, atemi, engage the enemy, whereas aikido will also use tenkan too a far greater extent (often to avoid contact altogether). We are constantly being told that certain aikido principles wouldn't work in AJJ due to the fact that the combatants would be wearing armour, which does makes sense, but as already mentioned, each ryu or ha or sensei could teach very differently from the next. I think all we can do is form 'opinions', no-one in here should be stating anything as 'fact' (im not saying anyone has so far, but you know what i mean, its as long as its broad).
I'm not so sure about the armour part. The evidence seems to point to the fact that Daito-ryu was developed in the late Edo or early Meiji era (mid-late 1800s) and can't really be considered an armoured battlefield art in the same way that, for instance, Yagyu Shingan-ryu can be. Many of the koryu exponents I've spoken with have expressed doubts about the antiquity of Daito-ryu aikijujutsu and feel that it was designed for use in peacetime.
Fair enough nickh, i can't really comment further on this, and i bow to your better knowledge, as this is only what i've been told by my sensei. I don't really know whether this is more of a 'training aid' to help the student better understand the difference in body dynamics between aikido and ajj, i just don't know, but i will ask my sensei next tuesday. Oh, but hang on a sec, i was just about to 'submit' this, when i realised something; the 'system' (my sensei said it was a system not a style (??)) is called 'Kogusoku', maybe there is a difference there. His sensei was the late George Oughton (http://www.seirokan.inuk.com/page3.html) this link may help explain, and then maybe someone can explain it to me
OK, if it's called kogusoku, then that may be an armoured art after all. I believe that kogusoku refers to grappling or fighting while using weapons (such as daggers) and possibly armour. This excellent article explains a lot better than I can: http://www.koryu.com/library/mskoss8.html But as far as aikijujutsu is concerned, many researchers feel that it is a recent synthesis by Sokaku Takeda and doesn't really date back to armour-wearing days.
Ok I'm a bit confused, Damned, are you suggesting that your instructor of a system of AJJ was taught this by George Oughton ? I realise the following post is going to sound very antagonising, please don't jump to what will appear to be the obvious 'slagging off' of someone who has since passed away (and therefore unable to defend himself) I'd just like to clarify a couple of facts if I may. In 1955 Kenshiro Abbe arrived here in the UK he brought with him the founder's written permission to teach aikido. Within the following years Abbe Sensei had graded 12 students to Shodan Mr. Oughton was neither one of them nor did he ever practice aikido during the time Abbe was here in the UK. Mr. Oughton was A Judoka. If you would like me to put you in touch with a number of people who were there at the time feel free to PM me and I'll forward their email addresses. I have read the following website, http://www.kogusoku.org.uk/ ...It even mentions Sokaku Takeda in relation to "..These techniques" The same techniques the website author leads one to believe has some connection to Daito Ryu. It also states that the organisation was set up my Mr. Oughton. Am I right in assuming therefore, given your Sensei's connection to Mr. Oughton, that Mr. Oughton set up that organisation and taught AJJ ? "The Kogusoku Aiki-Jitsu Association is a small Association based in the North East of England, and was formed in 1992 By the late Sensei George Oughton." ..."Aiki-Jitsu is a martial art from Japan, used on the battlefield by Samurai warriors. Its basic concepts to use the soft to overcome the strong. Its techniques are derived from sword movements and was developed by a group from Aizu in Japan known as the Takeda clan. These techniques were kept secret for combat advantage, until a man named Sokaku Takeda born in 1850 started teaching them to people outside of the clan. The style he taught was known as Daitoryu Aikijujitsu. One of his most prominent students was a man named Morihei Ueshiba, born in 1883, and became the founder of Aikido. The basis of Aikido technique is Daitoryu Aikijujitsu." Regards
Lol, i really don't now Dave. As far as i can recall, my sensei (Brian Morrison, who the link is about) told me he was one of the founder members of the British Aiki Budo Association. Now whether thats holds any grace with any hombu like japanese dojo's i couldn't tell you. He is 70 years old now, and certainly has a wealth of experience under his belt. He is certainly no 'McSensei', and i'm not suggesting you think that in any way. But its probably my clouded knowledge of his past and what he has told me that confuses things, lol, sorry about that. Not sure what else i can tell you really. We have a grading syllabus and have been told that there would be a panel of high-ranking dan grades to judge any shodan gradings, whereas kyu grades are challenged for in-house. As a point of interest, i will research into Abbe sensei and ask Brian on tuesday about the lineage of our system. if things become clearer, i'll post and let you know. Cheers oh, btw, just to add a little credence to Brians resume, until last year when he stepped down, he was Godan Kaicho of Eikoku Roshukai (iaido)in UK. He is very well respected in Japan by the senior masters in the (MJER) style, notably Iwata Sensei, of whom Brian is his favourite gaijin, lol.
Hi mate... Yes lets be quite clear I'M NOT suggesting you train in a "McDojo" If you wish to research Kenshiro Abbe you might like to start here: www.KenshiroAbbe.com although I am the admin for this site, the content therein is drawn from entirely independent sources and has been verified to the best that can be expected. Additionally at the "Hut" (Abbe School of Budo) in Hillingdon, there is a wooden board with the names of all Abbe's Yudansha (of the 50's fame) I have spoken extensively to several of the first group of Aikido students, the names of a few people who previously claimed to have studied Aikido with/under Abbe during the 50's have never been mentioned despite the public knowledge of those that actually were. Indeed, I am well aware of Eikoku Roshukai and Mark Sykes Sensei from Leeds, and the high quality of their MJER Iai As far as I'm aware the following organisations are recognised by the Aikikai in Japan: British Aikido Federation United Kingdom Aikikai Komyokan Aikido Association British Aikikai I also understand that the Brighton Aikikai (affiliated to Tissier Sensei in France) also has indirect recognition. Regards
I know the whole "who were the first Aikidoka in the UK" issue means a lot to some people here. But lets save it for another thread. With regard to the problem Rebel was having with his technique I would agree with Dave. Especially part C. Which i think is a common problem in Aikido. Too many people are too keen to throw uke to the ground rather take the time to see the technique through. I know different styles of Aikido take different approaches but I think we would all agree if you start off with a soft feeling (relaxed) then you must have the patience to maintain the same balance of softness and tention the entire way through the technique. If you change it's the same as uke changeing the attack. Uke will react to that change just as you should react to uke changeing the attack. It is possible to speed techiques up or slow them down mid flow. But this is achieved with body movement and positioning rather than altering the balance of softness and tention.
Dave, just found this, it aint much, but still..... http://www.kobukan.org.uk/ I emailed Brian (my sensei) yesterday to ask for some details of our clubs lineage. I asked for a reply in email form so i wouldn't forget it, but he went and flippin rang me to tell me, of which half i've already forgotten. He does swear though, that he saw George Oughton's licence stamped by Kenshiro Abbe sensei's signature/mei/mon whatever you wanna call it (this was a long time ago). He said that 'kogusoku' is indeed a system, pertaining to the use and defence of and with the short sword. So techniquse are short, direct and close in nature. The Kogusoku system derived mainly from 2 AJJ ryu's (aaahh.....i can't remember which ones he said) but he did mention the Takeda family quite a bit. Is the cloud clearer or darker now? Thanks for the info you posted too, informative. Yeah, i know Mark Sykes, done a few courses with him. btw, in case someone mentions it, i don't think these posts are out of place in here as we're discussing aikido and AJJ differences, i think this fits.
Hmm would that someone be me? I didn't say they were out of place exactly. Just better suited to another thread. Or better still PM.
Lol, sorry dude, didn't wanna name names, i know you have to moderate this thread, i just felt it wasnt completely irrelevent to the cause. I'll leave it for now, but if Dave replies to my post, then perhaps we should PM or make a new thread after all
I know different styles of Aikido take different approaches but I think we would all agree if you start off with a soft feeling (relaxed) then you must have the patience to maintain the same balance of softness and tention the entire way through the technique. This statement about starting a technique with a soft feeling is true. Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido shai should start from this approach as should Judo shai. In the ideal world uke should not be aware of what technique is throwing him untill he has hit the mat. I have found that if you are dragged around the dojo this is when technique become easy to resist, the best competitive players are the ones who keep you on the move without you even realising it and then with good timing apply technique. As for the credibility of various Aikido organisations. Most within the UK are not affiliated to the various Japanese Hombu, with grades awarded by their own panels, the BAB and various Martial Arts governing bodies recognise these grades, So does this make the receipients of these grades frauds. If so most of British Aikidoka are classed as such. Including myself as I hold a EAA/Japan Aikido Association grade of Godan technical grading and was presented with a Rokudan from the Aikido division of the BNMAA Zen Eikoku Aiki-Budo Renmei. for service to Aikido within that organisation. To keep all happy I list both grades
A liitle off topic I suppose but: I have seen Mr. Oughtons licenec and yes it was signed and yes his Shodan was registered with the Hombu dojo in the early 60's. Other than that I can't comment. Philip Smith 6th Dan Aikikai so Hombu
