Aikido versus kicks

Good eye aikiMac.

 

Seen some leg techniques demonstrated. The poor ukes was in a bad way after.
All the kicks do is give you more leverage so people really go flying.

The Bear.

 

Ikkyo teshin and ura waza shihonage !!

As impressive as those applications were to watch, the kicks shown were a fraction of the speed which can be delivered by someone particularly skilled in Karate. I cross train in Shotokan and as an Aikido yudansha with 18 years experience I am still trying to find the ma-ai (and timing) to effectively work aikido against karateka.

 

I agree. Very graceful and clever utilisation of Uke's energy BUT some of the kicks landed and appeared to have no effect, like the Mawashi Jodan which should have KO'd him - Tori just carried on with the chosen technique even tough his initial defence had failed. The rest were very slow and appeared to lack the 'snap' of the leg that makes kickboxer's kicks so fast. These looked more like slow Karate kicks, but I'm no expert.
The high kicks were aimed to miss, the low kicks contacted but with no force.

I sometimes train with a kickBOXER. Strangely absent from this vid is any use by Uke of combinations of kicks AND punches or of multiple short sharp kicks. One of Aikido's main weapons is the ability to be at the correct distance to avoid a blow and counter it. When Uke is using both punches and kicks it is a doubly difficult task.

One element which seems to have been lost on the Tori in the vid is that in Aikido we also use blocks - certainly in Yoshinkan a block to a kick would be perfectly legit.
A cross arm blocking defence to a rising kick or side kick can be turned into shiho-nage etc. , but not one you've just blocked with your ear!

I don't think the kind of leg catching shown in the vid would be at all possible from a speedy attack from a good kicker, Karate or Kickboxing. The techs shown seem to assume Uke would be committing himself so much he would be off balance - a good kicker wouldn't be as he would strike and withdraw like lightning, not leave his leg there for Tori to grab.

Youtube has a large number of 'art versus art' vids. They are rarely impartial and should be seen as demos. Fun to watch, though. Thanks for sharing it!

 

Legs are just arms on the wrong end of the body. It was a nice demo even though uke looked more concerned with the escape from the technique rather than his attack. But then again given the well dodgy ukemi from the shihonage, which he probably had to reherse over and over, who can blame him.

Now if anybody can find a video with good strong kicks against Aikido technique I'll give them an imaginary chocolate watch

 

Hmmmm....

The comments here are realistic but I don't feel they really apply when we talk about Aikido technique. The reason I say this is that a good kicker is also going to have the same skills found to be useful in Aikido, such as balance, control of distance, and good technique. A good kicker is going to be able to control distance and track the movements of the enemy and make adjustments.

I feel instead of Aikido technique it should be Aikido principles that we should be looking for.

About fourteen years ago, it might have been Saotome Sensei that visited Seattle (sorry I do not remember who it was), but he showed us a counter to a spinning back kick. The counter was to use a front kick to the rear (butt) of uke when they turned. When I demonstrated the spinning backkick (I was uke for him), I did a tight one (with knees together) very quickly with conviction and caught him off guard and he was not able to counter before I got my kick off. However I still missed him with my kick (a very important point to note he was off my line of attack). He told me to kick again but wider. He easily countered this kick before I could complete it.

I still use this counter to spinning back kick today from time to time when applicable, it is one of my favorite moves. This atemi pushes uke off balance and makes it much easier to catch their leg or just move in with irimi from their rear.

Where is the Aikido technique in this atemi with the foot? I don't know, but I know there is Aikido principles in there, and to me that is more important to see.

In an ideal situation, uke would not be able to launch a strong kick before they are downed. If the kick is strong, there might not be any Aikido technique, just the "don't get hit" principle in action.

Here are a few kick counters (verse a karate or Muay Thai roundhouse kick) not from Aikido, but would they apply to Aikido too?

1. use top of knee to strike the inside of opponent's leg to intercept a kick. (Atemi?)

2. turn to the side of a kick (away in the direction of the kick), allowing it to hit your back at less than full power, rotate the torso back and trap the kicking leg by wrapping your arm around it and locking it. (Tenkan?)

3. jump in and reverse punch to the chest, throat or face as they kick to jam the kick and nail them. (Irimi?)

 

Spinning back kicks are just theatre. One can walk in and negate these attacks very slowly and simply. Like 'breaking' cooked balsa wood - it's for entertainment.

 

maybe you aren't looking at the same spinning backkicks done in karate that I am. You might be thinking of spinning hook/heel kicks that are a bit slower because they have more of a circular arc. Spinning back kicks are very linear, on the other hand.

Or maybe you are talking about the same thing as me and you just know how to counter them well. :love:

 

Often true. However, in full contact, spinning techniques are commonly used after the opponent's already dazed, in order to finish them off. (One UFC contestant made a name from spinning backfist knockouts, but always delivered at the end of a combination.)

 

Where did you get this information?

Seems to me that the ideal time for a spinning technique was when the opponent was very close but moving away. By starting off close and moving away, the opponent actually moves into the power of a spinning technique.

IME, the spinning technique is used to stun the opponent, not to finish them off. Finish someone off is with a more accurate and quicker strike like a knee or uppercut, because someone might only be dazed for a second and you got to strike before they have time to recover.

Throwing a big spinning technique when someone is dazed is asking for trouble. Gives them too much time to recover plus you might miss. Finish people off with high percentage attacks, not spinning techniques.

If a spinning technique (heel hook, backfist, etc.) is thrown when the person is far away but moving in, the spinning technique can be jammed very easily, end up having to counter the jamming with a scissor's takedown or something like that.

On a different note, spinning techniques that are actually linear attacks like a spinning backkick and spinning elbow can be used effectively when the opponent starts far away and is coming straight in. This is because they are linear attacks and can't be jammed as easily as circular techniques.

This is in my experience.

 

A spinning kick, because of the legth of the limb and the dynamics of centrifugal/centripetal (?) force, is never going to be as fast as a spinning backfist or elbow which are closer to the centre of the body.

I don't want to be accused of singling out a particular MA whose spinning kicks prompted my comment about them being more theatre than practical use, so I won't mention, for example, Taekwondo. Especially when done to music.

It's ironic that Aikido is often accused of 'dancing'. After all, even Bruce Lee was a cha cha champ and I've read about one Japanese saying:
'Never put a sword into the hand of a man who can't dance!'

As to finding a video of full on kicking against Aikido defences, I've never seen one either. Maybe Koyo has a pic or two?

 

Attack his centre of balance not the attacking limb.This must be done boldly or you can run into a short sharp gyaku tsuke.Never turn you back (spinning) on a decisve opponent. As for spinning in aikido my thoughts on that are well posted on the martial art of aikido threads.

Koyo

 

Knew you'd have a pic!

Is that worth an imaginary chocolate watch Aikiwolfie?

 

Hi All,

The clip was very well put together but as has been said the Uke was compliant and the kicks (most of them) were slow, badly chambered and lacked focus and power.

Still it's good to see aikidoka working kick defences - I have been to some clubs were I suspect that they wouldn't know a kick if it had a letter of introduction from O'Sensei

All the best.

Robert.

 

No it's not a video

 

True, can't get around physics. However, I'm like a dog on a bone on this one. Speed is relative and even a very slow attack can nail someone if they "lean into it".

I'm not the most experienced in the world, but I don't need a video to see what I already have experienced. I've pretty regularly over the years sparred against those with Aikido backgrounds, TKD, Muay Thai, boxing, kickboxing, karate, etc., etc.

I've both used kicking attacks against Aikidoka and been on the flip side against excellent kickers.

I'll tell you that the number one key defense against good strong kicks is movement or should I say footwork, control of distance, and angles. It should come as little surprise to some that the majority of TKD footwork matches very closely to the same footwork used in Aikido, IME.

The worst thing to do against good kicks is to be flat footed (not move or shift) and not protect your centerline. Another mistake is to try to block a kick with a part of your body that can't take it (e.g. the edge of a forearm) as kicks are powerful enough to break bones.

Now what a kicker wants you to do is lean into or move into the sweet spot (power) of their kick. Because kicks can be very powerful, getting you to lean into where it is the most powerful is like adding their power to your power, making the whole collision more powerful. Bones break and people get knocked out this way. A great kicker will get his/her opponents to move right into the power of their kicks.

One of the worst things for a kicker, is if they miss and become unbalanced as a result.

Anyway, I see Aikido principles, especially footwork across the board in martial arts. Against kicks, I'm looking at the footwork. Sure we can use "footsy" kotegaeshi, "unbendable leg" ikkyo, and "leg lock" shihonage, but with good decisive footwork, protecting the centerline, then iriminage, atemi, and kokyu nage should be all we really need most of the time against kicks, IMHO.

Yeah, makes sense. Spinning techniques depend a lot on timing, a decisive opponent isn't going to be set up by changes in timing as easily if at all as an undecisive one that hesitates.

Plus if you turn your back and miss, very bad news.

 

The info comes from (a) my old kickboxing days, (b) my former kickboxing instructer (full contact world champion in her weight division, so knew her onions) and lastly (c) watching a couple of UFC fights that were ended by spinning backfist knockout.

Personally, I never used spinning techniques much, as I always found them too difficult to get away with. However, others more skillful than me seemed to make better use of spinning techniques.

 

Thanks for the info Sandy.

To me spinning techniques are surprise maneuvers. My only issue with how you described them was in that you said they are used to finish off an already stunned opponent. In my book the spinning technique is to catch the opponent off guard and is the technique used to stun or knock out the opponent. Follow-up strikes like grabbing the back of their head and giving them a nice knee to the solar plexus and elbow to the top of their head are used to finish them off.

I've seen people even in real world fights try the one, two, three combinations of two strikes and a spin technique only to end up missing with the spin technique and getting decked with a punch to the face from the opponent. I've seen work better is just a one, two punch, followed by a nice front thrust kick to the small intestine. I know this works in real world, one of our kickboxers used it against a guy that was grabbing her inappropriately.

The best spin technique knockouts I've seen was when one opponent was tired (kind of moving flat footed) and instead of closing to clinching and knees, he dropped his hands to punch and stepped back a little, the other guy threw a very quick spin heel kick over the hands, hit the first guy in the side of the head. Dazed him with a TKO. He could have then finished him with something else but the fight was called. The key was that the first guy was caught totally off guard, he never saw it coming. That to me is the value of a spin techique.

We just have a difference of opinion. I still can respect your views.

Cheers

 

You fight as effective as you train, its as simple as that.

If as aikidoka we want to counter what's presented to us, and in this particular case we're talking about karate(type) waza, then the only way to be sure is to go to a karate dojo, learn how their methodology and mindset works.. IE learn the system; then you'll be in a position to deal with those attacks.

The flip side to this is equally simple, it doesn't matter what type of attack there is a sequance of events which form the basis for eventual waza:

ma-ai, awase, kuzushi, waza (and ukemi in training)

...if we mis-judge mai-ai we'll be lucky to get away with anything else.