BTW If anyone wants to know how to sutemi from kote gaeshi, think yoko gaka, or yoko wakare, but with a kote gaeshi grip. Regards,
I can't say that across the board such techniques were taught, but people did know them. For sacrifice techniques: Yoko-otoshi and variations mostly. I only ever saw Saotome Sensei at seminars. When a particular nasty version of a technique was used, my instructor would call it ju-jutsu. When a technique gripped hold of clothing she called it Judo. It seemed to me that the Aikido was the technique that was not severe and did not grip... in a sense the Aikido was the defense to a Ju-jutsu or Judo trained attacker. Where Aikido failed in the physical regard, Judo and Ju-jutsu could be used. All I know is that because I was karate trained for many years before training in Aikido, my instructor had no problems using Aikido, Ju-jutsu, and Judo against me as she felt I could take it.
Man, and the Scots make the best whiskey as well. :love: I'm not far off from you, I have a genetic deficiency in the enzyme that metabolises alcohol in the body, a girl could outdrink me anyday under the table.
Go to ground while other attackers are still around you and they will dance a jig on your head quick time and be in know doubts about it!! Sacrifice throws are for when you are in trouble only, either falling or being thrown as a take one with you. I'd never volunteer one in a fight. Regards Teddy Bear
Going to ground with multiple attackers is suicide. The reason we only ever see BJJ demos, one on one. You did BJJ against multiple attackers you would get massacred. The Bear.
I would consider a sacrifice throw to be to use in emergency only. So even if you are falling you still have a technique you can use.
The only other comment on this, I would say is if you take some one down with you is they have a tendency to hold on to you while their pals get stuck in. The Bear.
Sutemi waza make good counters.You are being forced to the ground. Example when about to be thrown with tenchi nage just as he is about to make the final cut into your rear kuzushi you pr-empt this by falling to the side deeply into the kuzushi an INSTANT before he cuts, trap his arm and throw/draw him across your body. Very effective but takes perfect timing.The ukemi you use should take you back onto your feet as soon as possible. regards koyo Too late now but had Chris pre-empted my cut trapped my arm and dropped across to my left he MAY :Angel: have executed a sutemi.
I agree with you 100%. It's my belief that the majority of the 'larger' throws in Tsutsumi Hozan ryu are there because of Masao Tsutsumi or the Saito's involvement with Judo. This interchange of techniques is very evident in the early grades, with techniques such as kata guruma, seio nage and O goshi. It thins out as the gradings progress, and you start getting much shorter, quicker throws, and an increasing number of striking and dislocation techniques that are, once again in my opinion, from the original syllabus. Ditto on the esoteric names. Ganseki otoshi and hachi mawashi, to name a few, probably means nothing to those not familiar with the style. Anyway.....we now return this thread to its original programming :love:
Hence I said, if the opportunity arises. Usually you don't initiate a sutemi, sutemi really should only be used if your balance has been almost taken away and you are stuffed. Shouldn't happen, but you're kidding yourself if you think you live in an ideal world. This ain't no fairytale junior. A second is only what it takes to get up, that's still not ideal.....but I'd rather deal with (n-1) attackers anyday if I was in the worst worst case scenario. Sutemi is never a primary option.
There is no need to go to ground in sutemi. You can go to suwari (knee walking) which still leaves the mobility to follow up with a lock or come immediately to your feet. Suwari sutemi regards koyo
This is a side point, but in Yoseikan any technique where you go to one knee (like uki otoshi), is called a han sutemi (half sacrifice). Also, the goal of many sutemi is head contact to the ground. so if done properly he isn't getting up, unless his pals help him. This is the point I tried to make before. Since we have lots of sutemi at higher levels, we train to be mobile after executing them. :topic: What do you mean by "original syllabus"? Regards,
I meant techniques that were part of the style before Masao Tsutsumi's involvement with Kano Jujutsu - now Judo. Or to put it another way, the style as it was 500 years ago, as opposed to as it is today.
Did you miss the part about coming immediately back onto your feet? Sutemi is done when it is impractical to hold your kamae when you are in danger of being overcome by a more powerfull attacker.For whatever reason bad timing bad distancing. Once the kamae is "sacrificed" we IMMEDIATELY regain it. regards koyo
:topic: I would disagree, if the research is correct, and as the origin suggests, the art was initially Yoroi Kumi Uchi, and so big techniques (seoi nage, tomoe nage) would be required. Kumi Uchi is very similar to Sumo. BTW hachi mawashi is a common technique; it is usually translated to helmet turning. Regards,
:topic: Yoroi kumi uchi, as I'm sure you know, implies grappling while wearing armour. I really can't see large throws like seio nage working while wearing full yoroi. This is something de Jong sensei realised when teaching the S.A.S. when they were fully kitted out, these kinds of throws were next to impossible. Ditto with tomoe nage....can you imagine trying to get back on your feet with 30 - 50 pound armour weighing you down? That's why I believe it was the smaller movements - the reaps and hooks - that were probably the first techniques. But who knows..I might have it all wrong :love: If i could just get my hands on some yoroi suits........
No need. Just look at current kumiuchi school, eg Yagyu Shingan Ryu. Even the Koshiki no Kata in Judo (which is from Kito Ryu). Big techniques, including sutemi. Regards,
I know there's a wealth of these videos on youtube so I'll take a look and draw some conclusions For the record now though (I'm about to go to bed) I'll stand by my belief that the koshi waza were designed for 'civillian' use, and not for the battle field. Hand techniques (eg te guruma) and sutemi, however, could be possible. I just cant help but feel during something like seio nage or O goshi, some part of his armour would catch on yours and you'd both topple down together. Can anyone who studies a koryu share their knowledge? Oh and my apologies for hijacking the thread Good night and pleasant dreams to everyone
