First of all, let me boldly state this is not a thread meant to bitch about styles or claim "my style is better than yours". don't turn this into a flame war. I don't plan to be offensive, but I know some people might react badly by reading what is going to follow... Just relax, and discuss... I've seen too many blind MAists totally refusing to see the shortcomings of their own styles to not state what I just did.. Now that i've been specific, let me ask my questions/ask my reflexion about Aikido... I've been sparring recently with an Aikido performer and, well... he's getting totally overpowered.... even though he practiced about 3 times longer than i did (3 years versus a year for me (and half of this without a teacher, also rigourous))... and even though he knows far more positions, locks and everything than I do, he can't do anything because of the speed and my footwork, mostly... Is aikido directed more toward non-MAists? Or is it more of a martial art like TKD or Judo without "real" efficiency in the street? (and, well, if someone is a master in MA, it doesn't matter which style he use, he is still a master, i'm talking about mid-level practionners) I think it could create a mature discussion if people are willing to
Personally I think it takes a lot longer for someone taking Aikido to be able to use his/her techniques efficiently in a real situation. And how are you guys sparring? Give the guy a couple more years, then he will probably throw you a couple of times
Tatsuma Firstly...give that guy as hard a time as you can. You should know that 'aikido' as practiced is very bad for sparring, because most of it does not have sparring, it has either big killer moves or floating casual moves or hard grips. I personally prefer 'arts' that have sparring. Secondly, yes...some of 'aikido' is not 'martial'. A lot of people train in aikido for martial purposes, but a lot do not. As far as that goes, I could probably name a million 'martial arts' that only train for competitions, gradings or school photographs, or calmness, or holding breath under water.
Personally I don't take Aikido to improve fighting ability, I take it for more spiritual purposes, the fact that it IS a fighting system is just a pleasant side benefit for me. I've also studied TKD and a full contact style of Shotokan karate. I think Aikido just takes ALOT longer to develop proficiency in than other martial arts because it is SO technical. Also just because you 'rank' in a MA does NOT mean you're good at it, it merely means you know the required criteria to achive the rank. I've beaten Aikido brown belts in my school using strictly only Aikido moves and I am only a yellow belt. I have also played against mid level Judo players (mat work only) and won although I have NO Judo training. I did wrestle in high school but that was almost 15yrs ago. One of the worst problems I see with Aikido is that it is SO lethal in many aspects that unless you are a true master at it you really have to pull your punches in sparring otherwise you're going to endanger your opponent. For instance I do very well in 3 on 1 randori (free fighting) but in a 5 on 1 fight I get 'mugged'. I attribute this to the fact that you can't hurt anybody in practice. In a real fight I would try to break something quickly and put at least one or two guys out of commission. I have no illusions about winning a 5 on 1 street fight and I think the only way to even TRY is to get violent quickly, I'm not a master at the art by any means, maybe someday. Anyways the only SERIOUS short commings I have seen so far in Aikido is: 1. It takes probably 3 times longer to learn and be proficient at it than other MAs. 2. Its SO powerful that you need to pull alot of punches during randori. 3. It is lacking a full range of ground techniques. (I think Judo complements Aikido greatly) 4. Lacks a full range of striking techniques. (But remember this is a DEFENSIVE art and yes we DO have Atemi Strikes, although from what I hear alot of schools don't emphasize them enough.) I'm not saying your friend isn't any good, BUT I would suggest finding a 'hardcore' Aikido school and finding someone who IS known to be 'good' and spar with them before making a full judgement on the art. As you said ALL styles have thier short commings. Hope this helps.
Aikido is for anybody. Aikido is where the masters of other martial arts end up. It's old Musashi fighting with a bokken and not really hurting his opponents. It's Mr. Miyagi at the end of the "Karate Kid" movie when he stepped out of the way of the mean teacher's punches, and then just honked the mean teacher's nose. Aikido is when you could do a big movement and break 27 bones and rupture a liver, but instead, you just move a few inches and let the punch go by. Aikido is not-fighting because fighting actually sucks. Ya, what he said, except the part about a "full judgment." I would want you to spar with almost every aikido student around the world before making a "full" judgment, but I'm nitpicky. You fight the person, not the martial art. Every martial art has good fighters and bad fighters, both. As a beginer (white and blue belt) I've trained with brown and black belts who could knock me into next week, and I've trained with brown and black belts whom I could knock into next week. And I mean that about martial arts besides aikido, too.
yes, judo would do. infact i've heard aikido being described as 'pure judo'. what do you aiki-guys think of that statment? i used to learn Taiho Jutsu, which is a mix of judo and aikido, the problem was though that the instructors totally ignored groundwork. they were even talking about getting it removed from the syllabus. it annoyed me loads when they were putting ground work down because they didn't understand it. anyway, aikido (as with the stand up part of taiho) takes a long long time to perfect (especially the way i was taught). another posibility may be that he is just not co-ordinated or suited to the combat side of MA's and is in it for self improvment rarther than martial achievment.
I have studied a number of striking MA, as well as some basic jujutsu, but have found aikido the hardest to get to grips to. Feeling particularly frustrated one lesson, I growled at my instructor, "I just want to know all the answers, NOW," to which he replied calmly, "so do I."
This is a first for me. Although the two arts share similar attributes I wouldnt call one the pure form of the other. As for you sparring your friend. Do you have any training in ukemi waza? If not your friend may be pulling punches on purpose. For a technique to be effective it needs to be executed very quickly. If you dont know how to react or dont react fast enough there is a high potential that you will get seriously injured. I spar with a TKD practitioner from time to time and it is very difficult on my part because I am very limited with what I can use to disable him. I've noticed alot of aiki schools dont use open sparring at all. This is a real problem. I believe it should be a regular part of a students training in any combatative art. To be able to get knocked around and take a few punches with out loosing mental clarity requires regular practice. You can be a damn good aikidoka and some one managed to slip you a sucker punch and you werent prepared and cant take a punch you're done. So you're friend may not be comfortable in a sparring situation. As for a throwing,ground work, and striking art, goto the root and study japanese jujitsu (there are other nice well rounded arts but since we are talking about japanese arts Ill stick to those.) Its a nice well rounded art. just my .02
i think the sensai who said this to me was talking about the principles of 'ju' and aikido being soft style. i cant say i agree with him entirly but he has a point.
Kano said that Ueshiba's Aikido was 'Perfect Budo'. This statement was misunderstood at the time by one of Kano's students. And is not much better understood these days.
YOU CANNOT SPAR IN AIKIDO. THAT IS THE FUNDAMENTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MARTIAL SPORTS AND TRU BUDOS. IN A SITUATION WERE ANOTHER ARTISTS WANTS TO SPAR WITH YOU IF YOU PLAY BY SPARRING RULES YOU WILL ALWAYS LOSE, THAT IS WHY YOU GO IN FOR THE KILL WITH LOTS OF KOKYU AND KIAI.IT IS NOT A SPORT
I practice a style of aikido which I created, because is saw that moves are good but if you don't do randori or spar you wont be able to use the moves spontainiously on time and with out thinking. Also to become good at sparring you should work on ground fighting, I get mine from aikido and Gracie Jiu Jitsu. But the main cause a lot of Aikidoka have trouble with randori is because they some what attack the Ukes. By that I mean they try to grab the wrist into a wrist lock while the should wait for the attack. Trust me when the attacker attacks he has already been thrown! I hope this helps you Jordan
Yes you can. I do it all the time these days. Don't forget..when Tomiki returned to O Sensei with his 'randori' version of Aikido, O Sensei was willing to accept it as the way to 'teach'...but the other deshi refused to allow it because it did not suit how they saw Aikido and they refused to accept randori. Anyway...if you are 'always going to lose' because of randori...better to learn how to win Randori MAKES martial arts. O Sensei, Takeda...all of them learned from fighting....randori is fighting. Randori means 'finding order in chaos'...a basic martial principal. Anyone can comb their hair in front of a mirror, but that is not pressure. Without pressure a student is a paper tiger.
The only problem arises when you want to 'win' in randori and abuse the rules (which are there for safety) to obtain the 'win'. Randori should be about improving yourself, not besting others. Col
Well said! I concur with you Aikiscotman. Aikido is not a sport and there never can be competition in Aikido. To do so would be to water down its effectiveness. This we have seen in some of the other martial arts. Sparring without pulling back your Atemis, Techniques, Throws and Locks would be to invite injury to your poor uke (partner). But this is not to say that because we pull back our "punches" - so to speak, we become less effective out there in the streets. And about the footwork, Aikido has excellent footwork. In fact, aikidokas try to hide their feet thru the hakama to prevent telegraphing their movements.
Who was talking about competition? We were talking about randori. (Well, in this little branch of the thread anyway.)
Correct, aikido is not a sport. It is in that most fortunate situation of being able to be many things to many people. Randori is simply 'free practice', allowing participants to attempt techniques in a dynamic situation. Competition randori can be seen as a further atempt to test those techniques against someone else with a more literal goal in mind - whether a trophy or just the knowledge that your techniques are effective. Could someone please give me a convincing argument why competition waters down a martial art?! Finally, we don't all wear hakama to hide our footwork. I'd like to think mine is adequate that I don't need it hidden, and I'm hardly going to be wearing a hakama out on the street. Intriguing fashion statement though...
