Perhaps its different in your neck of the world Its not here as I don't know any trad Aikido school that kicks as part of its syllibus. This stuff should be added and every school I have been to. 3 so far can not strike for toffee. Its good you do and kicking is of key importance as well - good on u!
It's true alot of Aikido students cannot make proper atemi. That doesn't mean Aikido has no strikes. It just means they are not being taught properly in alot of clubs. Apart from atemi there's also empi (a cheeky little elbow to the ribs) and a gokyo punch (a strike to the lower abdomen that is particuarly devastaing if done properly, it's also very difficult to do properly). I've seen and practiced the low kicks Gravity talks about however they've never been a significan't part of the general practice where I am. Kicks and strikes have their place. However Aikido is more about defusing a situation without injury. It's very easy to unintentionaly cause massive injury to people when kicks and punches start flying.
aikido is made for not attacking just getting the conflict out of the way,so if you wanna hurt someone there is ways but you need strength to make them real affective, like one of the first moves it has a strike to the fore-head. aikido really can work in nowaday fights,its just if you know the right move for the right instant.
And this is where I tend to stick up for folks that want to train aikido primarily as a means of conflict resolution and don't place a great deal of importance on martial efficacy -- I believe it should be a primary concern in everyone's martial practice, but I'm not one to try to enforce that or even overly criticize someone else for not feeling the same way. I detect that there are a number of people on this board that feel as I do and are looking for ways to make their practice more effective and possibly take into account things that might be learned through cross-training. So, if you feel like I'm needlessly picking on you when I stress the importance of understanding how strikes and grappling can change the game -- when you're not even studying to understand how to fight, then please just assume that I'm not addressing you. My own personal feeling that I've found through training, conversing, reading and reflecting . . . is that O-Sensei was on to something, but he reached it through several periods of hard training, testing and reflection. I don't place him so high in the heavens that I can never ascend to his level. I don't expect to, but he was only a man. If there's not a way to get there then why train? I feel that by my own training, testing and reflections, I'll find my own path to walk that has a similar, if not precisely the same, destination. I'm a strong believer in conflict resolution and peacefull reconciliation. It's always something to work for. I also find joy in the knowledge and comradery that's established by hard training in a variety of disciplines -- and then looking at them through an aikido lens.
Aikido as first taught in the UK by Kenshiro Abbe Sensei was full of atemi. At the Abbe School of budo the students were taught kicking and punching as an integral part of their training. I think part of the problem these days is that Aikidoka are taught the Aikido of O Sensei as an old man. As a young man or woman you need to train with the vigour of youth and put in your dues. How can you train straight away in the same manner as a master who has trained for years and hope to be as effective as them. To believe otherwise I feel is just naive. All you will end up doing is practicing a hollow shell of what O Sensei did as an 80 year old man. All the best Jason T
But here's the rub -- these guys trainined this way because it was important that they be exposed to these things in order for their aikido to develop to the point where they could safely encounter such things in a confrontation. It wasn't done in the mindset of, "If my jointlock or throw fails I will then punch or kick them!" Rather, it was conceived as a necessary part of martial training so that 1) Such techniques and training methodologies would build an overall better martial artist. 2) Uke could give a strong attack with intention and nage/tori would be forced to mount a legitimate defense. 3) These techniques, when used by someone of proficiency that's trying to cause harm, would not be first encountered in a life or death situation. Now with those things in mind, it just seems logicial to me to try and incorporate those things into my own training and see that they comply with the aikido principles that I've been developing. I've trusted my instructors to aid me with this, but I've also gone outside to train in other places and see if these principles can indeed apply. Surprise, surprise . . . they do.
yeah well you think lots of stuff but do you do aikido? if not ur not really qualified to make such a statment, and the whole idea behind aikido is NOT to strike an opponent but to subdue them without having to hit back!!! so what do you base that statment off of ? honestly
Did you read through the whole thread squarepusher13z? If you did you will have noticed one of the main topics of discussion here was "Does aikido have strikes"? You will also have noticed Guy said he wasn't an expert in Aikido, didn't know very much about it and I informed him that Aikido did indeed have strikes. You will also have noticed Guys posts did seem somewhat confused. So your picking points with him is pointless. Just out of curiosity, what authority do you have to say Aikido is not about striking? Although it's true most Aikidoka do prefer not to injure their openent, a good number of techniques require a good atemi. That's a strike by the way. Weather or not an atemi actualy connects depends on the Aikidoka, the situation and the technique. It is perfectly possible to make a good strike that connects and doesn't cause any seriouse injury. I think one of the reasons people in the west miss-quote what Aikido is and isn't about is because we try to shoe-horn everything into tidy little boxes. Unfortunately Aikido is not a wester martial art. So it doesn't fit into one of our tidy little boxes. Aikido isn't just one idea or concept. It is many different ideas and concepts formulated into a system of training.
This is a common misconception about Aikido - that it is all gentleness and spiritual awareness. Considering that it has it's roots deep in Bushido and Kenjutsu, it has a firm grounding in real attacks. I studied karate for 4-5 years and now Aikido. I took on my karate sensei's belief that Aikido was basically not an effective martial art. Once I asked a nidan aikido person about the effectiveness of it in a bar, all that throwing and stuff, how can you do that in a crowded bar? His reply: sometimes you need a bottle in the face. Now that I train aikido I can see that while we don't train for striking, the strikes are there. When you strike you are immediately vulnerable. In aikido, it seems, we train to not be attached to the strike. sure, in a real situation, you would maybe strike the aggressor, like when you apply sankyo there are myriad strikes, hand and foot that you can unleash. But they will, against an experienced opponent, make you vulnerable and take your attention away from the true aim: to control the persons mind and body by utilizing their intention to attack and connecting with their centre. If someone wants to take you down to the ground in a street fight the chances are they will succeed. But if you learn to use their intention, you can lead their centre where you want it, and then lead your own centre the hell outta there... "The best block is not to be there in the first place"
Fudotai I read your comments with interest and given your previous Karate training,would be interested in your opinion on how effective the "average" Aikido student would be compared to the "average" striking art (for want of a better phrase) student in defending themself in a real life attack. I have no axe to grind in this and from my little knowledge of Aikido have been impressed by its ethos and techniques. ( I watched a video of a Dr Lee (I think) along with some other instructors and the movement,control and grace was tremendous). My question is more to do with how effective it would be for lesser mortals such as myself . I have always thought that in a real attack the basic blocks ,punches would give me "some" chance to defend myself (I am not cocksure enough to think that these could not be overrun by someone who just goes for it). With a more "subtle" approach as in Aikido (balance ,bodymovement,hand movements) would a student be more likely to be overrun because the difference between the training hall and real life is greater than the difference would be in a "striking" art. I trust you take this query in the spirit that it is meant ,I am not in "my arts better than your art" brigade ,just genuinely interested. regards
no offence taken ,I do not mean blocks as per training in a class but some sort of "effort" to block a punch coming in . I think there is always a likelihood of an attempt to block/deflect a punch or maybe knock a hand away when someone tries to grab you (in that bit of a fight which can proceed the main attack- posturing ,verbal abuse, goading etc) Sadly I've seen enough fights around the pubs and clubs in Scotland at a weekend in the 20 odd years since I was old enough to drink not to have a "just like the advert view of martial arts and their amazing street self defence aspect" Most fights I have seen haven't just been "milling" where people just go forward and try to land more punches than you receive although I know of one guy overweight unfit no martial art training and quiet (when he's sober) but in the "wrong " mood with a drink in thats what he's like, just steams in headfirst (literally) I think he would overrun the majority of MA that I know (I personally would place MY emphasis on the run bit ) My question was really if training in Aikido (say 3 years ) would give you any techniques to deal with that or would you require a much higher level of training before you would have anything from your training in your favour. I am not naive enough to think my "strikey" type MA is a panacea to cure all ills and make me a street cred fighter (I would probably need to crosstrain with highspeed sprinting -backwards to have a satisfactory system ) Nor have I any desires to be such a thing believe me I enjoy martial arts and would class it as more than "just" a hobby but it's way down the list compared to "real life".
I would have thought the answer to a big drunk tank like fat guy was to get out the way and let him run into the wall. Would you fight a bus? I think not (Well assuming you're sober lol).
Dear Ecky... Regarding yuor question "would a student be more likely to be overrun because the difference between the training hall and real life is greater than the difference would be in a "striking" art. In my experience with Aikido training I would have to say that the disparity between the dojo and real life situations is LESS in Aikido than in Karate training. Why? Because in Karate training, I learnt to respond to a certain attack, say, a mae geri, with a number of certain techniques, say, scooping the foot and lifiting, or gedan barai and moving then countering, or moving behind the person and taking them down, etc etc etc. Anyway, for any given technique, there is a multitude of countering techniques one could apply in the "striking arts" (not least of which is to MOVE). However, it seems to me that in Aikido, I am learning to respond to an ATTACK (as opposed to a particular technique) in a way that is more universal, ie instead of learning ways to block or deflect a punch or kick, I am learning how to redirect my opponent's intention to strike, learning to control my oppponent's (partner's) CENTRE, and thus render his/her's attack harmless. (Mainly by moving my own centre in relatationship to mt opponent) As an example, often in training, my Sensei will say "strike me" and, with all my Karate backround, I go for the finishing technique. What I find is that the more intention (kime) I put into the strike, the harder I hit the matt, and the more stress on my joints. She (my Sensei) is merely redirecting my attack. I am the one cracking a sweat, I am the one using a lot of energy, she is bending my energy (intention) to her own will. Furthermore, I outweigh her by about 30-40kg and yet, I have been directed to the ground, from a standing (non-movement) stance, by her just placing her arm on my shoulder and making her arm "heavy". I felt no pull or push, I just hit the deck. This is an example of the underlying force in all martial arts (Ki, or Chi) but, If I may say, perticularily in Aikido, the benefits of which reach far beyond the dojo. Fudotai "The long winded reply is often the most full of crap"
One other thing: one of the hardest attacks to counter is that head down, headfirst charge, as seen in many pub fights. One of the realities of life is that you rarely get attacked by midgits. Ie, if someone is gonna attack you, they will have sussed out that they have the upper hand, weight wise, or muscle wise, or weapon wise. either way, if you learn how to redirect a (particucularily larger) opponents attack and harmelessly neutralise their attack, you can "win without fighting" BLAH BLAH BLAH!
Dear Fudotai, Thanks for your response to my query ,makes interesting reading. As I said I have only a little knowledge of Aikido (books/videos.....no training) in the same vein as my knowledge of Tai chi(Wong Kew Kit books & some videos). The notion of redirecting an opponents force to work against him (as in Aikido & Tai Chi ) is an aspect that I would like to develop (currently use techniques which deflect a force rather than meet it head on but not to the extent of actually redirecting it to allow opponent to help "defeat himself"). I try to read up on a lot of martial arts to see what tips ,techniques could of use as an ad on to my training. The reality of this though is that the are only read and not taught to me by some one with experience of the technique. I have thought about cross training in Aikido in the past but would only really be able to justify one training session per week. Until now I have always been wary of going to a different MA club ,unsure of their attitude to someone from a different Art ( especially as I would be(in truth) looking at it as an aid to my training in my main MA).Thats not to say that I consider main Art as superior but just that I wish to progress further in it and any secondary training would be at a much slower pace(starting from scratch and only training once a week). realistically would this allow beneficial progress in Aikido(long term) and how receptive would most Aikido instructors be to this slower pace of training regards Eckythump
HI All, My background is boxing and muay thai. I am really looking to learn a locking etc based martial art to compliment them. Obviously im looking at Judo, Juijitsu aswell, but am interested to know, what sort of areas aikido covers.I have heard there is alot of emphasis on wrist work, but what else is there. Ie Arm locks, neck locks etc? Also, in your particular school/club, do you pressure test the techniques, with a non compliant opponent? My Instructor does have his reservations about Aikido, but i like to make my own opinions on things. Regards Geordie
There are many styles of aikido, mate. Some do serious pressure testing and some do none at all so you will have to look around. But, assuming you find a hard enough school...wrist/elbow/shoulder 'locks' will be employed, and it cannot be stressed enough just how painful and debilitating some of the wrist applications are. Resistance training is approached carefully even though the resistance is incredible. Neck locks are not so common (coz they are usually either crap, too dangerous for partner practice or just plain jailbait) but neck throws are very common. As are throws employing face contact (which was a shock to me as I came to aikido from judo). Throws from locks are also common and quite painful. However where someone outside would just collapse in pain the aikido guy will flip out, which can give some techniques an improbable look. But that's just down to the skill level. Weapons, 2 or more attackers, attacks from behind, attacks from being seated are all to be found. But like I said, depends on the school.
