Aikido is not technique; not fighting

I've never had occasion to use a peacemaker. It just takes all the fun out of life

 

Okay here is my problem with this approach. In my experience, which I accept might not be true for everybody, students end up with their heads stuck in the clouds chasing something that's just not there. Like this mystical universal energy some people call ki. Introducing any discussion of these aspects of Aikido to training also in my experience makes it all too easy for substandard teachers to brush off hard questions asked by students.

Too many times while studying Ki Aikido did I hear questions being answered with the phrase "use your ki". Which of course left the students none the wiser. Such an answer was even harmful to the students progression. We had 1st kyu students trying to perform super soft kokyunage techniques with absolutely no control over their uke. The uke of course took their fall when expected. Because nage was "using his ki".

I have no problem with people contemplating the more esoteric aspects of Aikido in their own time away from the dojo. I did study Ki Aikido for 10 years. Clearly these things have an appeal to me. However that should be a personal study. It's not something that can be taught and leads students down dead ends when it is.

You'll have to forgive me if I'm mistaken. But from your posts it sounds as though you're incorporating this stuff into your teaching. Which I would not recommend. And even out with the dojo the simpler you keep your study the greater clarity you will have.

 

Anyone can pull the trigger on a gun and send rounds down range. Actually hitting the target is a different matter. Then hitting a target that moves or runs requires a different approach to training. Then doing so under a variety of conditions while moving yourself, or in a multitude of positions or with the non-dominant hand requires even more specialized training and practce and range/field considerations and safety. Then doing so shooting from the hip is even more specialized. Each of these stages, more advanced than the next, require an even more finite understanding of the principles involved. It is a natural progression for those that train long enough.

It is no different in the martial arts. There is always going to be more and it never ends. The great thing about it is that it is not esoteric, or mystical, or unteachable. It is within everyones reach, and it is what makes martial art exactly just that. Those that deny this as part of a progression in training or cannot see that there is more must ave it all figured out, and implicitly understand what was taught to them and probably don't really have a reason to train any longer, but I am telling those of you here on MAP that there is a lot of work still left to be done, and if there were really a way to make your aikido more efficient, and even more practical than your own standards would that not be of interest?

Aikido does change us. How much it changes us and at what levels our training takes us to is based on the limitations of our own training and the limitations of our approach to that training.

So for instane going back to the gun analogy, although I am not a certfied rangemaster, I would encourage folks to shoot with both eyes open, and get used to that, and get good at it as they progress. I imagine though that there might be a couple of people who question that approach and say huh? I've never shot like that before. That's not the way I shoot. And look now I have to learn how to hit the target again? I was shooting just fine before with one eye closed and now I have to learn how to shoot again? Well, ummm yes, that is exactly correct.

 

Wow, I've never been told to use my ki, nor have I heard anyother instructors/sensei around me tell anyone else to use thier ki. In fact, I imagine if that were the case it would also be nice if uke could use their ki whenever they attack, thereby giving an even better attack? If nage can use ki, than so should uke be able to do so...it doesn't stop when we change sides of the fence, but we can leave that for discussing another time.

Well, I have started to incorporate it into my techniques when I demonstrate what is to be done for practice. My biggest fault, as you, aikiwolfie, can probably imagine, is that I am not that great at explaining things! Explaining things is what a teacher has to do, so in aikido I may hold a certain rank, as a teacher, I would say I'm still a white belt.

I have had a couple of the shodans ask me to explain what I am doing...and one of them even put it something like this: "...what you're doing is up here, and we as a class are still down here. Can you explain what it is you are doing?"

So then I try to break it down and explain some of the details that are beyond the mere enter here, move at a 45 degree angle in this manner, at the same time bringing....that stuff they can see for themselves.

So in essence you are kind of correct, the problem is that I realize that these concepts (keep in mind my post above: it is not esoteric, mystical, or ki related in the sense that most might think of, and I never mention ki as I am teaching...feeling ki, or exerting ki, or filling the room up with ki, or any of that what might be considered garbage...in actuality the room is already filled with ki, and would be so whether I was on this planet or not) that these concepts are advanced for most of the class.

I also realize that not everyone will "get it" (in quotes because getting it is not a constant right now even for me, but I'm working on it), but those that do, for me it is a real treat to see it come together those few times or techniques, and them to understand it and tell me how much easier the technique is now, and then see them ready and eager to learn the next technique, show up for the next class ready for more. It is also a joy to work with the class and hone their skills, while at the same time hopefully honing my own skills and keeping up proficiency.

The more advanced students will see and understand something is happening, the beginners will still be at their level and eventually incorporate this into their movements and execution of technique.

But it is the same way in any class...when I first started aikido, I would look at the brown belts and black belts and they understood through their training more than I did, they were able to work on aspects of their technique that I had not even considered yet. Remember, I was still learning where to put my feet, where to put my hands...There is always a learning curve.

As an aside, one of the fun approaches for me, as an instructor is what I call "ukes choice." At this time I call one of the shodan up (and I generally like to go with the gent that has his nidan in shodokan as well), and tell them your choice...yokomen, shomen, tsuki, gamentsuki, or any kick you like.

In this manner I have no idea what attack they will choose, I only know that there will within the next few seconds be an attack. Also, at this point I have not selected a technique to demonstrate, but the technique comes out as I am being attacked, and then that is what we practice.

 

izumizu,
Perhaps you could post some video footage, that way we can see for ourselves what you mean?
Gerry

 

Most people in the world, even many with visual impairments can learn to shoot reasonably well with a bit of practice and minimal tuition. Humans are opportunistic predators equipped with stereoscopic vision and multiple natural in-built gyroscopes as well as a hearing system capable of discerning the direction of sound in a full 360 degree bubble.

Hitting the target is what nature equipped us to do. You don't need to be special.

Now you're just babbling again or making things up in your mind. Nobody on MAP ever claimed to have it all figured out. What people on MAP have argued is that teachers should stick to teaching the basics and avoid adding their own twist to things.

To be honest I'm getting really bored with your analogies. I prefer to speak in plain, simple and honest terms. It avoids confusion.

Perhaps then if you stick to demonstrating what it is you actually want your students to do they will understand better. And this really demonstrates the importance of teaching basics. Introduce some perceived complex concept to your teaching and your students will naturally be confused. To my mind the technical elements of Aikido never change. Just as the technical elements of shooting a gun never change. Students simply become more proficient in their understanding and execution with practice.

Give your students a solid foundation and they can figure the rest out on their own.

I much prefer a principles based approach to teaching and learning Aikido. It removes the limitation of learning one technique at a time. It also allows insight gained from one area of practice to be applied to other areas of practice.

Techniques in Aikido are simply tools.

Nobody disputes there is a learning curve.

By focusing on the shodokan student you have already limited the attacks that will be picked. Even if said student is not picking the attacks. The others in the class will be aware of his abilities and will choose the attacks accordingly.

You've rigged the game without realising it.

A better way to demonstrate technique at random is to have a proper randori session. Proper free practice. Free from kata and all the other constraints of a normal class.

 

And yet the best militias in the world have experts that train their troops in the finer subtleties of doing just that, and for the most part along the over arching stages I have described. Shooting is also a martial art. Nothing too complex in understanding that, right?

I appreciate your quick arrival at the conclusion that I am babbling again, or that I have added my own twist to things, however, these concepts are not something I created, nor did they come to me in a dream, or while I was sitting in meditation atop a mountain. I wish I was that smart. These have been around for milenia. Over time many martial arts have lost these concepts for whatever reason...as SeongIn said in a post above, "I am just the messenger."

I can understand that, I would probably say you are bored with them because you do not understand them. Which is why I added the part about the experts training troops in the military to do it better than they would had they not recieved that training. There is always more to do, and it is never complete.

I did just stick to demonstrating, in fact I actually have to work harder if I have to explain the stuff. It is the students that began asking the questions. I was compelled to answer them as best I could, which I would surmise is a far better explination than you have recieved (or the people you have encountered in your training): "use more ki." They were not confused in the least bit...they just wanted to know how I was executing a specific technique, and I told them what it was that I was looking for along the lines of mine and ukes combined movements...nothing that difficult to comprehend, or be confused about...the only thing was for them to now try and incorporate this into their training, which they attempted to do with varying degrees of sucess, like myself, varying degrees of success. It will take many more years before it becomes innate. It was not something I forced upon them, they wanted to know what I was doing, I tried to explain it to the best of my ability, then they actually wanted to try it for themselves.

Nothing wrong with that.

HA! By picking a real live human with arms and legs it is rigged from the beginning, and I do realize it...the human body can only move in a set finite number of ways! It can only attack in a set finite number of ways, regardless of martial art style. That is what is so great about the martial arts from a defensive standpoint.

Yes, of course I do this, at times jiyu waza, at times with weapons (amazing how much better one attacks you once you place a weapon in their hand), and it is also fun to turn off the lights, though I haven't done the lights bit in a while.

 

When you get to the point and stop rambling we can discuss things further.

 

I keep watching people go over the same stuff----thread after thread. I am beginning to realize that this is happening because its NOT that people don't understand the difference between something done as a "way" and something done solely for technique. Rather, what I see is that there is no real tolerance for one group by the other.

People who train in a JUTSU or a SOOL do so to polish a technique to its highest level...to have the best polish technique. For people who follow a "-do" the goal IS the polishing! But what I keep hearing is people working to convince the other that one side of the coin is more important or has greater worth or value than the other.

The sense I get is folk have WAAAYY too much time on their hands.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Thus far I've made my points and addressed each and every one of your concerns as you mention them. I was really hoping you could at least do the same for me starting with my questions I began asking around 25/26, but I took it simply to mean that you did not have or know the answers to these.

I think WE can continue to discuss things further with the members of MAP here on this thread, or for the benifit of the many readers that may just be interested. If it does not benifit them, then at least they have had the chance to read it and decide for themselves.

I'd still like to take the opportunity to give the readers a chance to think about these things, and reply in kind if they should so desire. We still have a few more items I wanted to bring up as I posted in #24.

As far as discussing things, I am still open for that, and wish very much to hear your reply to some of my own questions, and your continued input on my ramblings that, well, you also fail to address, and simply dismiss as ramblings.

So perhaps for now, that is the point, and now we can discuss those things furhter? I don't know, just speculating here.

Anyways, gotta go do some work, class tonight...take a couple days and think it over. Lots of questions I ask, no answers. Lots of points you bring up, I address them, and I'm rambling on about the points you bring up...hmmmm, I think I'm beginning to understand how this is going now.

I do however enjoy discussing this with you, and I'm sure that others here as well appreciate your input and point of view.

 

Thus far every point you've made is tangled up in mundane analogies that do nothing to further the discussion and only lengthen your posts. Put your questions plainly so that I don't have to wade through irrelevant anecdotes and analogies and I'll be happy to answer them.

I've made my position clear. So far as I'm concerned any teaching or study in the dojo should be basics. The development of actual technical skills. So far as I'm aware and I accept I may be wrong, in most Aikido organisations and groups the development of Aikido basics continues all the way to 3rd dan and beyond.

Based on what I have been able to glean from your posts from when you first turned up on MAP up until now. It seems as though you're trying to impart some sort of knowledge or insight to your students that you yourself aren't entirely sure of.

 

Nice link to the videos.

I personally don't think that izumizu is wrong. I actually don't really understand what he is talking about. I mean I posted in joking about the Colt .45 cal. Peacemaker and suddenly there is a post about shooting as a martial art... which izumizu has talked about before; but really, my reference was that a lethal weapon was called the "Peacemaker". It is like saying Aikido is about love and then going out and breaking an attacker's bones with a kotegeishi. It was funny to me how this works.

izumizu is posting about I don't know what but his points about Aikido not being technique, AT THE END OF THE DAY, is not far off from interpretations of O'Sensei's words and those of others. Just read the Aikido FAQ here: http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html and I also found this interview with an Aikido Sensei who says "Budo is not technique": http://theaikidocenter.com/notes/uncategorized/peter-shapiro-sensei-interview/

The issue with all of this I have is this is not training, on the mat talk. izumizu, if you are reading this; IME, this is not talk for the dojo, this is talk at the dinner table over tea or sake. Or where I train, over the BBQ and beer or wine. Or over whiskey and shots in some other places.

Context is important.

izumizu, if you are talking about stuff to reflect on at the end of the day, then stick to that. If you are talking about what is practical in the dojo, stick to protocol and keep it simple. Just my suggestions.

 

Or down the pub over a cold pint of beer. I think I should appoint you Izumizu's official interpreter. :evil:

 

Might I also remind people spamming the forum will not be tolerated. Please read the TOS.

 

I'll second that. No offense taken over the peacemaker. I took it in good humor folks (just glad it wasn't the H&K M320!)

Really, the use of analogies I feel is appropriat. Please don't discount them and instead assail me for using them. If you find something wrong with the analogy in and of itself, that's one thing, but to attack the manner in which the info is presented is another.

I think Rebel uses analogies from time to time, perhaps it is why he can sort of understand what I'm saying...and perhaps his are a bit more clear and succinct than mine.

I'll try to make my posts shorter, an sweeter.

As for me teaching without understanding...I do believe that even O sensei said around the time he was 70 or 76 that he was just beginning to understand aikido.

FYI all, I do not interject these during class. The technical aspects students questin I address. The philisophical/spiritual is after class...so if class ends at 8pm, I will from time to time offer up some of the ideas and thoughts that I have been pursuing, and I finish it with "these are just some of the things that I have been thinking about." So we actually bow out at 8:10 or 8:15pm. (which is hell on the parents waiting to get their kids home for school the next day)

I'll get back to posting again in a day or two, and we can continue.

 

Well if you must use analogies take the time to think about what it is you want to say.

 

The site was blocked because another member from that forum (ruap_poudel) decided to start spamming this thread with an advert. Hence the TOS message above. MAP has no issue with members linking between sites when it's relevant. We cannot however tolerate spammers.

 

Great discussion folks,I have never studied a days Aikido in my life but have been in Martial Arts 37 years mainly Muay Thai and would like to say I understand near enough everything Izumizu is talking about in his posts and I can see where he is coming from through my own training,perhaps its a age thing!.

Thanks for a interesting read everyone.

Respect.

 

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate ?