I never said such a thing. Sorry if somebody understood my posts in this way. Every Aikido style is unique in some way (Aikikai is one of the ways of Aikido, but not only one !!). That is what makes differences between them. That's my opinion, anybody else would be so kind and share his ? Thanks, Hantu
I would be so bold as to say that the official lineage went to the Ueshiba family. However the actual art was diseminated in the beginning by the original uchidechi. It is no secret that O Sensei asked at least three budoka to inherit aikido before it was handed over to Kisshomaru Ueshiba. Again the shihan who received the most personal training (far more than Kisshomaru Ueshiba) from O Sensei was Morihiro Saito. regards koyo
Aikikai is a hell of a lot more dynamic. Difficult to misinterprate that!!! An opinion on the merits of the two approaches should be based on experience of both. I await dentoiwamaryu's reaction. regards koyo It dosen't get much more dynamic than this, Saito shihan
Who's the poor sap thats about to hit the deck? I threw a training partner on the grass once and he knacked his shoulder. Oops.
Let's be clear and accurate, the "aikikai" is not an official "style" of aikido. The Aikikai is an organisation through which AIKIDO is disseminated from the Ueshiba family line both in Japan and through out the world. Because Ueshiba Morihei is the founder of the system - his art is known as Aikido, doesn't require a style name or label however, there are as we know several of the founder's early students who went on (with the founder's blessing) and took their own aikido in new directions thus; those methods have different names, given to them generally by their own respective founders - Yoshinkan Aikido being one such example. There is much discussion about the "true nature" of aikido coming from either the aikikai hombu and that of the Iwama dojo where the founder spent a great deal of his life, the simplest way to sift through much of that agenda driven and political debate is to think of things as so... The hombu dojo located in Shinjuku-ku Tokyo was by and large run and administered by the founder's son Kisshomeru, his aikido developed in quite a different way to that of his father's - not wrong just differently. Ueshiba Kisshomeru changed a great deal of the aikido taught by his father but is without doubt the most prolific individual in spreading aikido on an international scale. Saito M. Shihan codified a great deal of what he was taught by the founder but remained faithful to those teachings often stating that "aikido was not his to change". Essentially those studying what was and still is widely known as Iwama Aikido are studying a faithful representation of what the founder taught Saito Sensei without any exterior development from anyone, where as that same cannot be said with those styles of aikido seen within the banner of the Aikikai, this is because there are so many people around the world affiliated to the Aikikai who's aikido very often is vastly different to each others, some very good, and unfortunately some very poor. The two methodologies can be very similar yet vastly different and really should not be compared.
Agreed. Comparisons are odious.Chiba shihan (aiki kai) Saito shihan (Iwama) my two main teachers. Guess where that places me? regards koyo
That's probably the best post on the subject I have ever seen. Incredibly well written. Have you been studying long? :yeleyes:
I was sent this link about Iwamaryu Aikido http://www.aikido2006.demonweb.co.uk/ looking at the site I assume that they are not affiliated to Saito Shihan's organisation as it states that the group is affiliated to the Aikikai foundation. Are the techniques shown in the video clips a representation of Iwama style. This debate has caused me to dust of my set of Traditional Aikido Books by Saito Shihan snr. I bought these in 1975 when I first started Aikido of various styles in those days, I just wanted to practice Aikido. What I find strange is that most Aikido Associations principle coaches claims to have trained under the Chiba. I think what many mean is that they have attended a course or two. We have the same thing in my style there are many Aikidoka who claim to have studied under Dr Lee Ah Loi, funny I trained at her dojo for 25 years and not met any of them. I would have loved to witnessed Chiba Shihan in his younger days. when I was young I just didn't realise how important these resident Japanese instructors were. In 1979 I attended a course at Yawara under the instruction of Hideo Ohba. I now know that he formulated many of the Koryu No Kata in the Tomiki System and studied directly under Ueshiba. If only I knew then what I know now I would had asked lots of questions about Ueshiba and Tomiki Sensei.
I found this eulogy for the Second Doshu (http://www.aikidoonline.com/Archives/2000/feb/feat_0200_tkc.html) , written by Chiba Shihan, to be quite moving. Apologies for the thread drift.
Unfortunately that site failed to load for me so I can't comment on the quality of the aikido in terms of Iwama methodology. FYI.. There are a number of "Iwama" aikido orgaisations which maintain a healthy relationship with the Aikikai including affiliation and certification. This isn't an uncommon thing even since Saito Sensei (jnr's) establishing his own organisation. Unfortunately this is a very common issue with a growing number of aikidoka who feel the need to add credibility to their position/status/ego due to the reputation which Chiba Shihan and others have. I first witnessed and experienced Chiba Sensei's aikido in 1994 at a UKA summer school in England, fantastic stuff.
I first witnessed Chiba shihan in 1965 when he was in his twenties!! First time I saw him he was all in black. Black kimono and hakama.I had been training under Noro at that time and was one of the very few dan grades so I got "special" treatment. Many aikidoka ran for cover and I shall admit I considered it too. But of course I stayed and shall always be gratefull for the training I received over the next ten years. Truly a master of the martial art of aikido. My expression says it all regards koyo Chiba shihan
evening folks, ill try and explain again better. going back through the posts. Ok so the honbu is the Hq for the Aikikai org. But the home of traditional Aikido is Iwama. Its the birth place of aikido. (check out the aikidojournal and stan pranins article and interviews with saito sensei). Everyone who trains in the honbu is aikikai,but around the world (thanks to many of the best shihan from the past leaving tokyo) many aikikai practice aikido that is so much better than what they do there now. there are also plenty Iwama style dojo ive trained around the world that are kak. you can break it down like this. One of the big problems the aikikai have is too much ki-no-nagare with an uke that just runs around and falls down. so because some(and most of the hombu) have little time on good kihon they are weak when held by someone who holds to restrain and control you, rather than holding you because its there turn to hold you ond run around after you. Now Iwamas problem is the opp. because some schools practice too much kihon. they can end up losing the idea of awase, then there tech becomes alot more jujitsu looking .more about resisting rather than being heavy from uke .and trying to stop the tech. so ive seen some dojos, that when they try kinonager and jyuwaza its just a fight and a disaster. HELL IM NOT SAYING IVE GOT IT DOWN TO A TEE EITHER.FAR FROM IT.
OK, pretty true. Up until the late 80s or early 90s(koyo will maybe no better) Saito Sensie students where all aikikai as Saito sensei was. Around this time western uchideshi started suggesting that Saito should award separate Certs as His aikido was not what was being taught in honbu. So basically Iwama ryu certs where born. The japanese deshi carried on in the aikikai but saito gave the western deshi the choice. When sensei died in 2002 (which was during my first uchideshi stay, ill never forget that one) It was known that The Usheiba family owned the dojo and shrine and all the land except for the land he had gave to his longest most faithful deshi Morihiro Saito. There was and had been talk about Osensei family taking back the land and dojo.As Sensie had already prepared his only son Hitohiro to carry on the teachings, he had already built his own dojo in the village, aware this was probably going to happen. So when it they did take it back and sensei decided to leave the aikikai he set up his own Organisation, www.iwamaaikido.com, called "Iwama shin shin aikishurenkai " But Some of Morihiros high rank deshi from around the world stayed with the aikikai and the founders family and some choose to follow sensei and carry on with Iwama Style Aikido as it naturally carrys on evolving In iwama under the Saito family. Although from what i witnessed last year when i was living there, the amount of aikikai from around the world that switched to Sensei and new ones joining was huge. The best thing to do to find out about Iwama and its part in Aikido is to check aikidojournal.com Stan pranin knows everything about Aikidos history.
Hey koyo, i hope my last post about some of the problems ive seen in Honbu styles and iwama style dojos gives an idea. I think its really important to always be working on awase in everthing in aikido and life. especially in kihon you need good strong kihon grabs and attacks but tori still needs to be blending just the same as they would in kinonagare. I think the guy in the pic may be Bruce Klickstein (one of the first yanks to go over in about 72-73). he is defo in the vid where the pic comes from, as there are about 6 in the attack.
Hi Dento I have always stayed well away from politics in my training but I remember Saito shihan constantly saying that he did not teach his aikido. The aikido that he taught was that of O Sensei. He was adamant about this. As for dan gradings I think the mokuroku in aiki ken and aiki jo were substitutes for dan gradings so as not to upset the Honbu but I cannot be certain. I know at many demonstrations Saito shihan would use books featuring O Sensei and show how O Sensei executed the techniques (not the same as they were being executed in the honbu) I think that was about as "political" as he ever got. Other masters introduced "alternate " gradings such as the fukushidoin certificates. I think this was Tamura shihan and Chiba shihan.I have a couple of those and a mokuroku from Saito shihan. While he was alive Saito shihan stayed resolutely loyal to the Ueshiba family while others were less than complimentary of the direction honbu aikido was going. Again I remained outside of these discussions. Both Chiba shihan and Saito shihan encouraged us to train with as many aikido shihan as possible.Bottom line for me is if the original shihan show resect for each other then so too shall the students. I can only hope this shall be so. below cerificate for aiki ken and jo it does not mention honbu it states Morihiro Saito direct disciple of O Sensei Ueshiba.Make of that what you will. As far as awase goes I teach that tori must blend with uke receiving powerful attacks until his technique merits uke MUST blend with him. regards koyo
On re-reading my last post (partly shown above) I realise I neglected to add something important: When mentioning above, that the aikido generally studied under the umbrella of the Aikikai has a great deal of "outside" influence which has occurred externally of the Ueshiba family, this is IMO because there's no singular emphasis on the "right or wrong" way to study the system. Koyo will bear me out on this because so many of even the founder's early students, and then later with the ni-dai doshu's students, all have their own opinions and methods on how aikido should be studied. Because aikido is now a truly international martial art, we've had and continue to have a massive amount of cross-pollanisation of those opinions and methods over the years; this has in turn created what I consider to be often a highly diluted mess depending upon who's doing the aikido. At least with aikido studied under Saito M Shihan one would know that there hasn't been any additional development other than the codifying for teaching purposes. I'm not suggesting that the aikido studied under the Iwama label is better or worse than anything else, all I wish to put across is that there most certainly is a clear emphasis on a right and wrong way to study aikido thus there cannot be dilution of the system in terms of quality; there will always be questions about a person's ability or quality - but never the system its self - The two are separate discussions. Apols for quoting myself.
