Sorry to dissapoint you, but if that is what you look for, you wont find it at KMAA Aikido Club. The description there was unfortunately prepared by the person who doesn't have any idea what Aikido is (he was asked to remove that quote to avoid further missunderstandings). The official website (not kaizenmartialarts.co.uk) is still under construction. The mentioned dojo follows the most traditional Aikido Aikikai rules. Both of the instructors come from associations strictly connected to Hombu Dojo in Tokyo. Saying such a things without even joining the class for one lesson is in my opinion a complete missunderstanding. How you can judge something in this way ? If you want to look for something more like the style from KMAA Aikikai Aikido Club, try to search for names like, Yasuo Kobayashi, Christian Tissier, Fumio Toyoda or Keith Moore, but I think I don't even need to introduce them to people that know at least basics of Aikikai Aikido. If you would wish to get more info on classes please contact me on PM. I'm more than happy to send you more details. All the best, Hantu
Sorry, what you on about? im not looking for anything! Sorry again but if your folowing anything that comes out of the honbu, then it aint Trad Aikido,but Modern aikido. there is a huge difference. never saw any aikido to come out of there recently that was anything other than dancing and looking to uke to do all the hard work. sorry but thats how i see it.
Now I am confused but I am a Tomiki Aikidoka! I always thought that the Aikikai honbu was traditional aikido. We have the same thing in the Tomiki Shodokan Shidokan world. The way I practice Tomiki Aikido is closer to the style of Hideo Obha than what is practiced at the honbu today. I think each senior sensei puts his own stamp on the art and things will evolve sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. I am interested in the difference between Aikikai and Iwamaryu styles?
first let start with the honbu/aikikai. Being in the aikikai has nothing to do with being from the honbu thankfully,as anyone that was or is a great martial aikdoka (ie chiba) lfet the honbu. they where able to stay within the aikikai organisation. Aikikai represents no particular way of training, its an umberella. there are a few non honbu aikikai shihan that are practicing trad aikido, because they training properly under Osensei,(not just witnessed the odd demo in the hombu) and retained the basic principles and concepts that make aikido work. The main change in the honbu is thanks to the first doshu, who completley changed and watered down what he had learnt from his father, as he wanted something easy for most people to practice. there is now no resemablance to what todays doshu does and what Saito sensie snr and jnr have carried on downing every day since Osensei died and left his legacey to saito Sensie to lok after and carry on ( yes evolve). As for the difference between whats going on in the honbu and iwama, it would be easier and quicker to find what is the same ( apart from the name) you cant include aikikai as that represents far too much.
I am a little confused... So by traditional do you mean - closest to O'Sensei's teachings, which is not always the same as closeness (to what most people may consider) to the official lineage of aikido (aikikai)?
When I read this, I lost my words .... All do respect mate, but read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aikikai , if Hombu Dojo is't the headquarters of the most classical Aikido from all styles, tell me please what is ?? Where does Aikido come from if not from O'Sensei Ueshiba ?? There are so many styles now, they have different names. Aikido is only one, real and effective, and comes from it's founder O'Sensei Morihei Ueshiba. Unfortunatelly each sensei adjusts the art to fit his needs and skills. Then he passess it on his students, and they have their input into it as well. We end up with tousands of Aikido Schools, arguing which is better. That's pointless ... If we master at least one of the schools, then you will see the advantages and disadvantages of each of them, then we see what is better for us. But coming back to the difference between those two, Aikikai is hell more dynamic and effective. Hantu
I have been training in traditional aikido for more than forty years. In that time I have trained under many of the original shihan mainly Chiba Shihan and Saito shihan. There is little comparison between what passes for aiki kai today and what I was taught by these masters. Now you may receive "recognition" of your dan grade by paying a fee. Many of the basic principles are missing or ignored in the training. Saddly I must agree with dentoiwamaryu. I started the martial arts of aikido threads here on MAP specifically to address these issues in a technical manner since I have great distaste for politics and personalities in aikido. I suggest you look at those threads. regards koyo
Politics is indeed something that destroys everything in Martial Arts all over the world. Here I agree with you. Little quote here (if we spoke about differences) : "Iwama Ryu is a now defunct informal aikido organization, comprised of one group of the students of Morihiro Saito doing the type of aikido normally referred to as Iwama aikido or Iwama-style. The terms Iwama Ryu and Iwama-style aikido are often used erroneously as one and the same. Iwama Ryu really refers only to black belt ranks that were awarded by Saito sensei." Hantu
Hi Hantu, I'm sorry but I have to agree with Koyo on this. I have trained with a 6th Dan Aikikai who didn't know how to protect his centreline. That is simply unacceptable. No one should receive a 6th kyu without that being the first thought when training. Modern Aikido has fallen very far from the tree and effective Aikido is only practiced in pockets of dedicated practicioners. Usually those who have accepted cross-trainers into their club the ensure that their Aikido works. The Bear.
Hi Polar Bear, thanks for your input in our discussion. Ok. Let me clear something. We aren't discussing what people show with their technique, what they can and what they can not do. Here I disagree with you completely. You obviously can't judge the martial art after what you've seen training with one person. This is very complicated thing to explain why some Aikikai masters aren't folowing the proper way of Aikido. Some of them have their degrees from masters that aren't accepted by Aikido headquaters. As I said it's too complicated. I personaly think, we shouldn't assign styles to single people, because then we will end up with 2 mln Aikido schools. For me, there is only one Aikido, founded by O'Sensei and others are only following him, adding something from theirselves from time to time. Where and when did you start training AIkido more than forty years ago ?? Hantu
Sadly this isn't an isolated case. I have trained with many Aikidoka from UK and US. Most never regularly training against determined attacks or resisting partners. The 6th dan was the most illustrative case of a degenerative trend. The Bear.
This only shows the level of Aikido in few dojos you had the pleasure to train in. To be honest, I've trained in number of dojos throughout UK (not all ofcourse) and I only found like 3 worth training in. What I've seen in others doesn't even deserve to comment it. I know that some Aikikai masters train Police, Special Forces and Security Officers in number of countries around the world (ATA). Sorry but thist must be effective !! I've seen some videos from seminars in Poland, these guys are killers. Personaly, I wouldn't wish myself to fight one of them. Hantu.
Hantu I think you need to take a step back and consider what people here are trying to tell you. Aikikai honbu dojo might very well be the "official" lineage. But the style of Aikido being taught today isn't the same as what it was in koyos day for example. For better or worse things have moved on. Based on the few examples I've seen of modern Aikido from Aikikai honbu dojo, I'd say it had more in common with Ki Aikido than what I've seen of Chiba sensei. Modern Aikido in that sense then is very much geared towards personal development rather than martial effectiveness.
I don't really know where you find such a dojos. I've also seen lost of masters of different styles of Aikido. Some worth seeing, some not, but I don't judge all masters by what I've seen. It's obvious that every Martial Arts evolves over time. Each school often represents different style, but all are based on Ueshibas first and only Aikido. I advice you to go to mentioned before Poland, and see the effectivenes of their style. Almoust all schools follow Aikikai rules (if not all). First link I found: http://youtube.com/watch?v=yWVJR0ZI9zQ , looks good.
Hi Hanto "Where and when did I start training in aikido?" In the photo of Chiba shihan in my earlier post I am uke. Aikido was introduced to the UK by kenshiro Abe in the late 50's In the early 60's he invited aikido shihan to give seminars among these were Noro, Nakazono and Tamura shihan. In 1965 Abe shihan asked O Sensei Ueshiba to send a teacher to Britain to officially spread aikido. This was Chiba shihan. I was Scottish national coach for the aiki kai for the ten years Chiba was resident here. When Chiba shihan relocated to San deigo I sought instruction from Morihiro Saito shihan so I have a deep perspective of what is called traditional aikido and Iwama aikido. Saito shihan was the longest serving deshi of O Sensei and received more personal training from O Sensei than any other aikidoka. The main difference I see is that Saito shihan forbade flowing style aikido until 3rd dan feeling that solid fundamental basic must be mastered first.Chiba shihan has a very martial attitude to aikido. Today many schools begin flowing techniques from the beginning. When faced by a powerfull commited attacker this form of aikido can be most ineffective. I am pragmatic enough to realise that people train and teach aikido from many different perspectives .While aiki kai is seen as the home of aikido I cannot see an adherance to the principles taught by the original shihan. If the gentleman in the video being discussed is considered to be worthy of a dan grade in aiki kai aikido this only strenghtens my belief. Check out aikido masters history and enecdotes thread if you wish further information. You say that all schools of aikido are based on the aikido of O Sensei Ueshiba. I have seen it from the beginning and have seen many change it almost beyond recognition. DO NOT CHANGE THE ART LET THE ART CHANGE YOU. This is a lesson I have taken to heart. Saito shihan late seventies myself and Charle Wolfon ,one of my students,receiving mokoroku in aiki ken and jo.
It's pleasure to hava a chance and exchange my thoughts with such a experienced person. The discussion started from assigning KMAA Aikido Club to some kind of style that seemes not to be Aikido. I tried to explain that it isn't so. My view on Aikido is different from what I read here. Ofcourse I don't want to offend anybody. From what I see here, the way Aikido look depends on sensei not the style trained at specific dojo. Politics is something I hate and not tolerate in martial arts and unfortunatelly has huge influence on specific masters and their students, who share that tradition on their students later, and so on ... I think futher discussion is pointless, because either you and me wont change our mind. All the best, Hantu
I think futher discussion is pointless, because either you and me wont change our mind. All the best, A pitty Hontu since I have had my perspective changed many times by cross training with other arts and am quite prepared to have it changed again.When facing other arts I have always returned to basic traditional aikido. My best wishes for your training.koyo Edit before dento comes on. Iwama aikido is a world wide organisation.
Surely it's not too difficult to see that 'official lineage' does not necessarily equal 'authentic'? In the same vain, surely you cannot say all aikido, which isn't aikikai, is not true aikido? There are many branches of aikido, whose founders learnt from Ueshiba. A name is just a name.
