Discussion in 'Aikido' started by aikiwolfie, Apr 1, 2004.
Damn... I got nothing in return
Lifes harsh and unfair anyone telling you differently is selling something :evil:
Usually my latest seminar.....some spaces still available!
The needle on my crap detector flew off its hinge in about 2seconds into that video.
I don't train Aikido either. But when I see
- WC doesn't have hook punch and roundhouse kick, I will ask why.
- Aikido doesn't have "leg skill" such as hook, sweep, scoop, spring, lift, break, cut, ..., I will also ask why.
Judo has many "leg skill". I don't see that in Aikido. May be some of your Aikido guys can explain this. Why?
Here is a leg skill "lift" used in Judo.
Because aikido is built around Japanese sword-fighting. It's not jacketed wrestling. It's kenjutsu done without a sword.
It's not just what you say about weapons. There's no priority to developing leg skill because that is what Judo is for. At the same time, there isn't a lot of emphasis on grabbing and breaking because that is what jujutsu is for.
Whenever we used something from Judo or jujutsu in Aikido training, we identified it as something more direct and hard. It was still part of Aikido training, but it wasn't Aikido.
I think people often forget that the Aikido techniques are mainly to learn application of principles, but to test out these principles, you have to cross-train. What happens when the cross-training goes away is perhaps the downfall to many martial arts that over specialize.
As an example, one the greatest Aikidoka, Koichi Tohei, started in Judo. Too bad he went off into Ki fantasy land after breaking off from Aikikai. His teachings and skill were really good. I think he forgot that cross-training was really important and instead ended up creating the Ki society that overly specialized in Ki training and led to no touch ki knockouts and energy ki balls, and whole lot of other fantasy stuff at the expense of testing through cross-training.
The point is that cross-training and things brought from cross-training were part of Aikido training but are not Aikido. Lack of cross training is a real concern.
What is the spirit of Aikido?
be canadian and have awesome 80's hair?
"magic at your fingers"
I've not engaged in aikido for many years and watching this clip made me curious to understand why this is an example of good aikido
1. Why does uke always stand straight up in the perfect striking distance after taking ukemi? (eg 0.30 - 0.40ish) surely it makes more sense to stand up at a greater distance?
2. What is the martial value of standing stationary with your arms by your sides while uke closes distance (see photo)? This seems very risky to me (unless you know his only attacks are to grab your jacket without affecting your balance in any way)
3. What is the purpose of uke's grabs at around 0.45? Looks to me like they are overreaching to simply connect to tori's wrist, but with no structure to move tori &/or continue an attack with the other hand or leg (see photo)
Is this, in your view, a good example of kenjutsu?
Because it looks to me like uke is very exposed as he cuts, the sword cut is about 3ft too close and uke's left leg is not grounded at all
1, 3. I don't think he was a good uke.
i think this needs to be said more. and let's face it, this is the real problem of aikido training. if one goes into it with the spirit of understanding martial principles, then it's a useful exercise. if one is looking get the tools needed in a real-life situation, they're going to be disappointed and/or hurt.
you might ask what good is it then. i don't have the answer to that, but it's a very fair question.
No. I echo what you said, plus, he was leaning forward.
Maybe what good it was, was as a system for exploring the high level refinement of finding angles, entering, taking balance and using an opponent's force against them once you had a solid base in other budo. How much of that was practical exploration, how much of that practical exploration was high percentage and how much of it was simply ideologically driven (quasi-religious philosophical perspective on peaceful existence) and whether that was fixed or changed over time, I have no idea.
What ever it was, it certainly isn't that now; at least not commonly and certainly not openly. What it appears to be now is a highly questionable framework for dealing with a physical altercation based on a sanitised and fanciful representation of violence and marketed as esoteric martial wisdom for practical and moral self defence.
Cool - I'd agree
Are there any clips of him working with good ukes (all of the ukes in the clip looked to have broadly the same issues to my eyes)?
Quite honestly I'm beginning to suspect many or most Asian martial arts have suffered over the years due to deference to seniority and rank and saving face or not wanting to cause shame.
The demos are so full of people taking falls and throwing themselves to make the top people look good I'm not even sure where effectiveness can be found.
The reputation of Shioda and the reality of what he shows in demos just don't match up.
Of course arts in the west have suffered from this too but the latest outrage at the moment caused by the MMA guys beating up chunners and TC guys in China seems indicative that for years lack of skill or effectiveness has been kept hidden due to not wanting to cause a fuss or cause a senior or respected person to lose face.
I don't know of any clips beyond what youtube/google will pull up.
And #2 -- ppfffttt, come on! I can't think of any reason for doing that either! (Other than as a demonstration aid for showing body alignment. Posture and footwork are perhaps clearer when focus is removed from the arms and face. But that's a learning tool, not a real application!)
i think if you keep in mind the basics, it's a useful exercise. the way i was taught is: first and foremost, be safe and evade the attack; two, unbalance; three, perform technique. these three items seem to have a wide applicability in what we would call "martial arts".
again, you could argue there are more efficient and practical ways to explore the principles and i wouldn't disagree. but i'm not sure that's what ueshiba had in mind anyway.
the most frustrating part for me is the lack of consistency between organizations and dojos. i feel like i learned quite a bit about the principles and applicability at one dojo, at another, was very much a caricature of "martial arts".
I dont know if this counts as thread necro, but what is aikido's attitude on physical conditioning like weightlifting, HIIT etc? I know some internal and would be soft style schools that frown on strength/power training in a resistance context like weightlifting. Some aikido-ka I met as a student voiced the attitude it would interfere with the techniques and philosophy of the style by teaching strength as something you can/should rely on over flowing with an opponent. I dont know if my limited sample size is representative of the aikido outlook but I dont seem to see many noticably buff aikido-ka and wondered if this was normal?
I've considered moving into the style as I grow older my joints stop being able to keep up with Judo and GLIMA, but I still want to continue my physical development outside of that.
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