Well Timmy Boy, When I was your age I, was a muay thai fighter. I trained with some really tough lads from Glasgow's East End but in all seriousness they were sport fighters, now they hit hard and in a brawl they would take most people apart, but they trained to fight rounds and trade blows. Battlefield MA don't fight like this, encounters are short and bloody. I think the only way you are going to understand this is by experiencing it. So if you feel a feeble old polar bear is not too insignificant a challenge then please come on up to glasgow and train with us. I promise you'll leave with a different view of Aikido. The Bear.
Interesting thread. I had trained Aikido for about 4 years. Since one and a half year I've done Kung Fu (CLF) and we had some open sparring classes with other MArtists. Once a Wing Chunner Sifu from another Dojo heard I had some Aikido experience and we fought. He wanted to test if I ever can get hold on him. I tried Ikkyo Irimi and Tenkan..nothing worked except a Sankyo. But nevertheless one out of four is not bad because none of the other people could get hold on him anyway (plus up to that point my Aikido skill already had decreased). I would say: Yes, Aikido needs long to learn and use, BUT if you learn to get a sense which techniques apply best to you and on which you can rely on even when your brain ticks out in a combat situation (adrenaline/fear-reaction) you can defend yourself as well as with any other martial art. Only the way is different. If you can defend yourself always comes more from the fighting situation and the relation between your fighting ability and the one of your oponent. I also know quite a few security jobbers that only use Aikido.
I like this thread. When I started Aikido, maybe 6 or 7 months ago, I was a real fast learner. Often complimented on my ability to imitate the movements so well. But I found that's where the hardships of Aikido are. Since we learn through demonstration, we become familiar with a set enviroment. I suppose that makes Aikido somewhat robotic, but this is only in the starting phases...or so I'm led to believe. I practice Aikido a lot in my spare time, usually doing a random Ikkyo to a friend next to me. I've noticed that they usually try to pull their arm back to resist. I usually let go, as I'm not a fan of struggles, so I got the "Ha ha, this kid failed his stereotype!" As I'm Vietnamese, I'm the martial artist of my circle, my school circle anyway. But I've figured out that if you push as they pull, you can do the irimi I think, variation. Yes, I was told this many times in my class, it was also demonstarted. But only once I did it for myself did I understand completely. Now, moving on to my story after this small intro. I have a group of older friends, whom I've met through MA. One does Kempo, the other Judo. The Kempo friend loves to spar and learn things, so we often do light contact. Honestly, all I can do is Aikido, which doesn't always work for me. Two reasons, one, opponents don't dig in like they do in class. Two, strikers (kempo at least) always strike twice. So I don't neccessarily try to apply a technique, I try to zip to and fro looking for one. One day, out of two weeks worth of sparring at least, he tries to give me the stereotypical karate chop. Almost instinctvely I zip underneath his arm, and hook it with my arm, not in an Aikido way per se, more like a chickenwing in wrestling. With my other arm, I give him a kubishime and in what seemed like two seconds, he was tapping. Asking me out of breath where I had learned that, as it was the first time I had applied a successful choke. Needless to say, I felt proud.
Hi Squall, You are learning a valuable lesson early. NOTHING WORKS ALL THE TIME. Just make sure that if a technique fails move on and try something else, anything even just a slap in the face. Just make sure you don't freeze when something goes wrong. Also when sparring, koyo will tell you I made this very mistake last week, if your opponent is bouncing about like a sport fighter. DON'T go into that pattern, stand your ground and wait for them to close, then when they are just coming into range pounce. That's right, attack! A good entry will open up a host of possibilities. Good Luck in your training and keep posting. The Bear.
I used to work a drill for tournament fighting I called the "bubble" drill. It basically was to put a bubble around me in my mind. When the opponent crossed into my bubble, I would attack whatever openings were presented. My bubble was around three feet from my body but some very skilled fighters could go out more than six feet out with good success. My strategy was to continually move at angles to get off the direct line of attack and inch my way closer to the opponent. My goal was to get them to do at least half the work by closing the distance on me. This means that occasionally I would retreat slightly to get the opponent to move forward, closing the distance on me thus doing the work for me. Then I would move slightly forward putting them into my bubble where I would aggressively attack while moving off the line of attack. I found that the back hand strike using my lead hand was one of the best and quickest attacks I would land. One reason it was good was that it allowed me to turn a bit sideways (making it easier for me to get off the line of attack) and keep my elbow where it could cover my body for defense. Also it was not a straight line attack so I had the whole surface area from the back of my hand to the wrist to my forearm and elbow to strike with if the opponent tried to dodge my attack. I could follow up with a kick or reverse punch or any number of other techniques. I would try to hit the side of the head along the jaw line. Note: For self-defense application, I could hit and rotate into the hand blade, after the impact rotate the hand over and use the tips of my fingers to grab the jaw bone just below the ear to turn their head away. Followed by a cupped strike to the ear or a chop/slap to the jawline to break the jaw. P.S. many tournament fighters did not like to turn sideways because they liked to be able to use both sides of their body to attack with. These guys also were very good competitors, but all of the good ones were young and naturally very fast. They could use deflection blocks and dodge side to side very quickly. They also exploded very quickly in to the opponent and attacked so quickly as to overwhelm the opponent. I wasn't so fast as them so I had to turn sideways to protect myself while still finding ways to bring both sides of my body into attacking.
Let me get this straight dude.. you mention him experiencing something like a short and bloody encounter. Is that really what your training is? short and bloody, I hope that's not the sort of encounter you have in mind for our Timmy Boy challenges really aren't necessary, why don't you just post a vid of what he's missing ? Sounds to me like you guys train it harder than most, so it probably isn't very typical. . Do you train it like judo ? if so that's cool, it's really all you have to say. And where does striking fit in, do you use any gloves for instance ? My school also does aikijutsu, so i am interested to see or hear about different kinds of training. The dangerous stuff you can't really do, can you? cheers
HI zendog I may be wrong but I think bear was reacting to Timmy Boy (who does not train in aikido) continually posting his "opinions" with an overuse of the word CRAP!!! As a longtime aikidoka I am not at all happy with the direction many are taking the art. That is why I started the martial arts of aikido threads to attempt to present it as I was taught it (and teach) as a martial art.If you care to read some of the posts on those threads your opinion would be most apreciated. regards koyo I cannot say how bear trains in his club , but in ours, which he visits from timt to time, we do use atemi. Usually to the body when meeting resistance or, as in the photograph to engage the "other hand" on which we may apply a technique. In this case will be ikkyo (attacking the elbow)
I agree that this is a valuable learning experience, but don't look at it as proving whether or not Aikido "works." I had a similar experience when I started karate 20 years ago. I sometimes sparred with my best friend and some of his friends, all of whom had some training but a lot of street experience. They confounded me with fakes and knee kicks that I had not trained against, but I learned to watch out for those things, and eventually countered them. Not the first time, but over time. So when you spar with your friends, make a mental note of the things that confound you. You'll learn to watch for them in the future and maybe come up with "Aikido-based" counters to them --- not something you'd been shown in class, but you may learn how to use the ideas from class to handle things you see outside it.
Which is why Im in my current 'style' (taijutsu)...I'm a geek at heart, not a jock, and like the weapons 'stuff'. I used to fence, too, off and on for a number of years a decade back. If I was to take up a "competition" school of MA, it would probably be Kendo, because I like swords, but don't particular expect to defend myself with one, lol. If I was really into hardcore MA as competition, I would go BJJ or MMA, or Mui Thai. But I'm not...and the current style I'm in will still give me enough self-defence to subdue your average Drunken roudy at a bar. Plus, the non-competition styles (taijutsu and aikido, at least) seem to place more emphasis on escaping from multiple attackers (emphasis on the word 'escape')...something an MA like BJJ appears to lack focus in.
Good post. I think if you are young, you should train like a young man. As you get a little older you can slow down a bit..if you want. If you want to go no where you can do tai chi My point is, for a lot of people aikido and tai chi maybe even most other TMA is not what they really want. It's not much use calling it crap, but you could say there are mostly crappy schools and teachers that don't get enough sweat on, or get to the real and hard work of the reality of fighting whether one on one or something else. I think we can safely say that MAP's Aikido people have perhaps more than a few wise men who are not quite ready to pull over to the middle lane and let their MA slide away completely.
I don't take this as proof of anything, because I know for a fact that Aikido does work. In daily life, on the street, in a competition, whatever. It's just the matter of whether or not my Aikido works.
The problem as I see it is that many "aikidoka" confuse their "received philosophy) which is NOT AT ALL the same as the philosophy expounded by the original shihans, with the physical techniques of aikido. I repeat what I have posted many times and shall probably post again!! Aikido is a dynamic art that cuts directly through the attacker's INTENTION to attack. Attack at all times, develop a superior fighting spirit, dominate the spirit of your attacker. These are all basic principles of true aikido. My favourite saying???? DO NOT CHANGE THE ART LET THE ART CHANGE YOU. Regards koyo edit I also know that aikido works. If it does't IT IS NOT AIKIDO. rant over. Believe me it works and it hurts (if need be) below ara waza severe technique which could break the arm and damage the spine.
This quote makes me think, truly, what is changing the art? Am I changing the art by applying it in a way it hadn't origionally meant to be? Am I changing it when I use Shihonage to deflect a gun instead of a blade? Am I changing it when I sweep an opponent's leg during an iriminage? My views kind of conflict with that statement, as I believe every practioner of any martial art molds it in his or her own way to some degree. Whether this 'changes the art' is still in question. As martial arts are meant to be flexible for anything dangerous should it arrive.
Hi squall In a confrontation an unlimited responce is required so you would not be changing the art if you responded in a positive manner by striking sweeping whatever works. What I ment is that there are those that change the art into little more than dancing always training in their comfort zone never considering cross training etc.To change it so that it loses it's martial effectiveness is what I am against. regards koyo edit by the way Osoto gari during irrimi nage is one of my favourite techniques.
I see. While I can understand, I would just like to play devil's advocate for a second. Isn't cross training more of changing the art? I mean, if you take a Tae Kwon Do kick and throw it into Aikido, doesn't that make it Hapkido?(Please, no one dwell on that comment.)
My cross training has aways been to make my AIKIDO more effective. Example karateka do not leave the hand "out there" so you can apply a technique. So you must learn to unbalance them at the instant of contact and be prepared to use henka waza (changing from one technique to another) A 6th dan kendo who trains with us, if you do not unbalance him properly ,becomes like a rooted tree for an instant and has the hardest short punch I jave ever felt.Since I have been training a loooong time anything I learn at other dojos "becomes" aikido. Many that I have crossed trained with are interested in the hito emi (sharp triangular) entry and use it in their own arts. At an advance level I feel that there are far more similarities (particularly in principles) than there are differences. In the early days of training aikido was looked upon as a budo and anything that added to it's effectiveness was encouraged. Many of us were judoka so the sweeps and trips you speak of were common. If you have not already done so I recommend using the search button and having a look at the martial arts of aikido threads. regards koyo Irrimi nage turning into a strangle (if it works use it)
Another way to look at it is that there is a foundation or "heart" of Aikido. This is the part of Aikido that should never change. Part of what makes up this heart is the fundamental principles and sincere training. What is beyond this "heart" is supplemental and in this supplemental training, whether it be cross-training or real world experiences or something else, it is meant to change and adapt as needed. I was told by my first martial arts teacher that the unchanging part of the art (insert the name of your art here) ends up that it is only the tip of the iceberg, should be about 10% of your training at advanced levels. Although a beginner should spend about 90% of their training in foundation / 10% in supplemental, intermediates around 50% in foundation / 50% in supplemental, with only advanced training 10% in foundation / 90% supplemental. Edit: A problem arises when the heart / foundation is chipped away in such a way that through neglect or misunderstanding, a good foundation is not built. When the foundation is weak, anything built on it will also be weaker.
Here is another way i explain my theory on the application of Aikido For illustrative purposes think of this. Aikido "technique" is very simple. Once its learned its learned. You have the knowledge of using it... now you must obtain the skill to APPLY it. Its often seen with Police training and firearms. We are taught to draw ( quickly ), obtain sight picture on ceter mass, controll the trigger sqeeze, and then the round discharges ( in theory striking the target ), repeat again and you have the classic ''double tap." Aikido technique is very similary to that shot. The tricky part is to be able to do it under STRESS. Look at Police use of force reports and there are a lot of missed rounds. People will often learn the mechanical how to's of something, but forget to practice them under stress. Stress makes even the most simplest of things go to hell in a handbasket. Once one has aikido's waza down to a moderate level of competence, the entire remaineder of their training should be solely on the application of those waza under stress. Just my 2 cents. Johnny
Ha Zen, your far too sensitive. Timmy Boy said aikido was ineffective and useless. I merely offered him to experience a different view of Aikido. I guess it was a challenge to his perceptions more than his courage. Although minor injuries occur frequently and on rare occassions the more serious ones. We do bare knuckle strikes now, used to use gloves but it ruined the fight dynamic (became to sporty). Also when training with koyo a few of the boys there are partial to planting strong kicks. Though my favorite conditioning is letting my 3 year old jump up and down on my chest and stomach. The Bear.
