Aikido application in light sparring...

Hail to the MAP Aikido massive!

Last night I met up with another MAP'er and two others who'd rented a room and some mats and decided to have a light contact sparring session.

Now I've only been doing Aikido since april but I was hoping to be able to apply at least 1 Aikido technique. I tried for Ikkyo a few times and even did shomenuchi with the intention of making my opponant raise his elbow higher when he blocked it. Unfortunatley, nothing worked. It was impossible to react or "defend" against an attack and I was eventually forced to attack (is this Aikido?) Well actually, Irimi worked. Every time. I would enter through my opponants whilst doing an open palm to the face. I was always well off line and in a good position to run away if this had been a self defence situation.

If I'm honest, I did leave a little bit doubtful about Aikido. Right now however, I'm not even going to attempt to do anything about it. I know Aikido takes a long time to learn and its harder to apply than other arts. I've just got to keep the faith I guess.

To the point of this post...

Has anyone done any sparring like this with other stylists? How did you apply Aikido? What didn't work? What did you find out?

PS: One thing I'm thinking about is how little force light contact creates. All the strikes were light, fast, sometimes taps. Perhaps if it was heavy sparring, my Akido might work?

 

No, but in Kali class, we've begun "practice sparring;" I did that a couple of times. And I've done some push hands/sticky hands in Kali and Tai Chi. Although I'm working to keep the arts separate, it's possible something from Aikido "sneaked" into the other situations.

I didn't set out to "apply Aikido" outside Aikido class; my kali instructor is adamant about keeping things separate. That said, one time in Tai Chi, I was working with a gentleman who's also been to Kali and Serak. We were doing pushing hands, pretty much the same as in Kali the night before, so like a good show of-- I mean, a good Kali student, I had my eyes closed, relying on touch-sensitivty. So I didn't see what Mr. Dunham did. But I felt him sandwich our hands together in such a way that he was in nikkyo -- the main difference being he had a hand on top of the hand I'd use to restrain his other hand. (You got that?) So I cranked. Did he fall down like an obliging uke? No. But he did bend over and go, "Ok, that's enough of that!" I let him go; he straightened up and said, "I belive that was Aikido."

At the time I wasn't sure so I said, "I think so."

In the practice sparring I've done so far sometimes, I tend to "stick" to my partner's hand or arm in a way I hadn't before I got back into Aikido. It could be influenced by Aikido. Or any of the other close-in arts I've done. Or just so I'm too slow disengaging with my pary!

Then there was another time I tried to apply sankyo to someone else. Nothing happened.

My experiece would seem to suggest that Aikido's results outside the dojo may be best summed up by one word: "Unpredictable." Anything from zero (nothing happens) to off the charts (crashes to the floor/flies across the room; neither's happened yet) and everything in between (pretty much where I am). Also remember that other martial artists are not going to be slouches at maintaning their balance and resisting/countering joint locks and throws. Overcomeing that and applying whatever you want against whomever takes a level of expertise few people, if any, alive today have. Yeah, O Sensei could pin sumo wreslters with his thumb, but you're not O Sensei, are you?

On top of that, Aikido technqiues frequently take you in CLOSER than punching range, so if you try and do stuff at arm's length, it might not work so well.

My advice would be to keep the sparring light, and do go in trying to apply one technique or another. Worry about getting off the line, keeping both hands in play, zanshin, and everything else you get yelled at for. If you can find something, try it. If not, don't. And don't worry if you don't get "dojo results" outside the dojo; there are any number of reasons why that wouldn't happen.

Good luck!

 

Sparring is fun - I've done it recently with a kick boxing instructor who was also a grappler. The trouble is that we aikidoka have to 'hold back' on some of our techniques to comply with sparring limitations. Even if these are informal - don't kill or maim etc - it puts a real barrier up to a lot of aikido because you have a uke from another MA who has no defence (ukemi) if you crack on a hard technique. As a good martial artist, he too knew how to allow for my deficiencies - even though I'm still aching!! (My excuse - he's 30 years younger than me!)

Tomiki randori is a world away from freestyle in Yoshinkan, but both limit what you can do. For example, in Shudokan (Yoshinkan with the nasty bits left in) my uke can attack me as hard as he likes with a live blade and I can respond as hard as I like. But I know he won't throw it at me and I know I wont really cut his throat once I've taken it off him. Water that down and you've got sparring.

I would also say that you have obviously discovered that many aikido techniques may need a good dose of atemi before they work on a non-compliant uke. This holds IMHO on the street as well, but more so. For example, guys do not reverse their direction or let go of knives/bottles because of your wrist twist - effective kota-gaeshi in this context incorporates hard atemi and a very good 'finish'.

Posture is a key component in any contact with a different style of MA. In my (limited) experience a relaxed and flexible posture beats a formal left or right stance every time. (As a relative beginner, you may not have ben taught this way yet, as every technique seems at first to begin with a formal posture.) My own style of Aikido (Shudokan - like Yoshinkan) teaches us to adopt this natural stance, arms relaxed, in any fast freestyle. Adopting a formal stance (as for grading demos of a single technique) is akin to telling the guy exactly how and where to attack.

Aikido being what it is, readiness on the street (or in sparring) is not about macho threatening posturing but about always being ready to defend - and if that means being relaxed enough to move in fast with a pre-emptive strike, it's surely better that they can't see it coming.

Don't underestimate the eyes, either. Training in a harmonious and friendly way need not preclude taking control of the mat. This is a whole science in its own right, but you need to look calm and confident, dominant yet not aggressive. Your posture and eyes work in harmony in communicating this. People who spar in their MA need this competitive advantage but may confuse aggression with dominance. One thing is for sure - your eyes are the window through which others seek your weakness and fear, so whatever you feel, learn not to show it. Yes, practice in front of the mirror for both posture and demeanour (including eyes, face etc.)

As to using aggression, if I may digress (as I often do!) a Buddhist perspective would be to feel no anger towards your opponent/attacker but to use the appearance of 'wrathfulness' to help protect your opponent (street or dojo) from committing the stupid act of attacking you and being injured. Kiai works internally as a silent aid, but in sparring or SD a good yell can add greatly to your effectiveness.

Have fun with this, but IMHO you can't compare MA's in sparring, only individuals in a very specific situation. This especially holds true if your style of Aikido does not teach freestyle with fast, multiple attacks and 'real' committed attacks. That would be a bit like fighting a duel when you have a sword and the other guy has a sword and a pistol. Just use the opportunity to learn from one another.

 

It does, and I remind myself of it everytime I doubt Aikido. I'm sure you understand though that it is easier to "lose faith" with Aikido (especially at the stage I'm at) than with other arts where the application is so straightforward (e.g. Boxing). I basically treated this as an opportunity to add to my Aikido training, not justify it. Any failure of Aikido on my behalf, I always put down to my Aikido, not Aikido.

Oh yes! Irimi really threw (not in that way) my opponants. I love the footwork.

I think one of the main reasons for the problems I experienced (besides being a newb ) is that I didn't get in close with it. Kickboxing experience makes me aware of being punched and kneed at this range so I didn't feel I was "safe" there to do Aikido. Did you get hit a lot when entering?

Most definately. During my reflection on the night, the phrase "90% of Aikido is atemi" kept popping in my mind. The problem is that atemi in "light contact" doesn't take posture or stop your opponant momentarily. Still, it's good to better understand this phrase by martially applying Aikido outside the dojo, and I now know another reason why Aikido is trained the way it is.

This was the entire point of the open mat session. A very good occasion which made me ask loads more questions about my art, developed understanding, reinforced the lessons I have learnt in Aikido thus far and was a load of fun!

 

Yes, I spar people with many different martial arts backgrounds, from light to heavy contact. I think it is great that you are exploring testing out what you know against people that don't think and fight the same as you do.

First things I noticed about Aikido is that it focuses a majority of training time against an uke applying forward pressure. Even the grabs done by uke primarily are pushing into tori. This is necessarily for learning Aiki principles in training as it gives the energy tori uses to help apply Aiki technique.

In Budo, a committed attack is said to contain this same energy. The one punch/strike ends the fight philosophy. This looks good in theory, but in application it is only one factor among many. As I will attempt to explain... Using the committed attack philosphy in Aikido is only a starting point because it does not factor in timing. The missing factor in basic Aikido training is timing.

In application, there is a certain time when it is to your advantage to produce the committed attack. It is not a firehose that only goes one speed like in practice.

In sparring, fighters can keep a more balanced state until it is time to break the balance. In other words, you move towards them, they may move away with you (keeping a balanced state) with defensive oriented attacks such as jabs and single counter strikes/kicks (attacks with less commitment). But at the right time they will produced the committed attack/counter to overwhelm you, rush you, knock you out, or take you down to the ground.

You can catch people "asleep" in sparring by producing a committed attack (such as irimi) when they don't expect it. This can and will work well but works best when you are allowed at least medium contact to the head. You don't have to strike the face, you can palm strike the forehead for safety.

If you want to use anything else from Aikido, you need to forget what you learned in class and work on the basic principles first for application. First things are movement and control of delivery systems. In application, I have found that elbow control is vital for technique. If you get an extended arm and you start to apply ikkyo, make sure that you trap and control the elbow along with the technique. If you get a bent arm, make sure to pin the elbow against the opponent to immobilize it as part of your technique. As a related point, unbalancing your opponent tends to have similar effects as elbow control because people tend to worry about falling on their face more than countering when off balance. Use elbow control with unbalancing your opponent for best effects.

But most important for getting things to work is to develop good timing to catch people by surprise, fool them with feints, change the speed and angle of attack, and get them to commit to an attack without them knowing it. This feeds the energy needed for Aiki techniques.

-------

Or just fight robots that always attack with the same speed and intent, then your Aikido will work fine... Just kidding.

 

I was too slow to post. Your timing was too good.

I posted about timing also.

 

Thank you for psoting this thread. Anybody here on this board from the Philippines? I've been looking for a good aikido practitioner (among other things) to practice my MA against. I've only seen Aikido demos and have never gone head to head against a good practitioner (most of the guys I've met took it for a year when they were kids and hve compleately forgotten it).

If interested please PM me.

In all respect,

Raymund Suba

 

i think all begginers go through the same mixed feelings when it comes to Aikido.I did it for about six weeks before doubting it and becoming more commited to the striking arts.It just seemed to take too long,be too unpredictable and have too many slow fat high grades who I know wouldn't stand a chance on the street.However after a time I stopped looking at the differences between the arts and started to see the similarities and even the complimentry aspects between Aikido,Wado and boxing.I knew I had to go back just for the balance, footwork and close quarter grappling and boy I'm so glad I did.Have been having a ball with it ever since.Sparred with my brother and caught his arm time and time again thanks to a combination of Wado and Aikido,also had a rumble with a bodybuilding pal and used some techniques to a high degree of success(nearly put him through the wall).Other techniques however are very in-effective at begginer level against someone three times stronger than you.As you say you are looking at ten years just to learn the basics, so don't rush,relax and enjoy.Aikido does work.Keep the faith

 

I think that the problem most mid grade students have sparring with different styles is that most Aikido schools styles teach defence's from various attacks most of these are traditional Japanese attacks.

A kick boxer for example will spar in every class getting used to a free style situation and gaining fitness. these free style arts have also adopted western boxing hand work rather than karate hand work.

The problem for aikidoka in this situation is how to apply technique, a good atemi will stop your opponant, but then this is light sparring and breaking someones nose is not light. Applying kuzushi this is a skill that take time to learn.

Looking back at my own aikido study I would think that some Tomiki stylist are better equiped for this situation than most due to the fact that have trained in a free style competitive situation. I would say that Toshu Hikitatekeiko was the best randori form to practice for this as this teaches you to attack and defend with Aikido techniques and how to close down your opponant.

Aikido is great in all of it's forms, it has something to offer every type of person. So you struggled in a free style situation you will over come this, this happens when you cross styles. I have struggled with some traditional aikido and Yoshinkan aikido when I have been on variuos seminars.

I know of one 5th dan who contributes to map who came to our dojo Yawara Dr Lee's club a few years ago who struggled with applying technique in a Toshu randori situation against Ken Broome one of the best competitive akidokas around, its all about what you are used too.

 

All of the omote form of aikido techniques taught by Kanetsuka sensei attack with shomen uchi. Uke will block then the aikido waza is applied. So yes you can attack in aikido.

It is difficult to use aikido on someone who uses fast sparring style attacks. I once sparred against a black belt in Taekwondo and I'm afraid to say I had to rely on jujutsu blocks to stop being kicked in the face. However I could have thrown him easily by catching his foot, but as we were sparring I did not.

 

My Aikido experience is actually all that's been helping me since I've joined the local JKD club. Irimi, tenchi-nage, and ikkyo, primarily; after absorbing massive amounts of abuse in the free sparring trying to use my wing chun and judo standup, finally was able to start winning by waiting for the opening, entering, taking down with aikido. And then the submission - tell you what, they're too used to BJJ! Especially when we're sparring non-competition rules, the Aikido locks are very effective. But yes, you have to modify it, especially when facing western/thai striking styles.

Edit: I should add that it wasn't light sparring. The full commitment probably helped in the entering (though it definitely made it more painful when I took some elbows on the tenchi)

 

Leeless linked me to this thread to address my concerns, so I'm sure you won't object to me commenting even though I don't do aikido.

It seems to me that there are two tired excuses going on here for why aikido doesn't work in sparring. The first is that "you haven't been training long enough", sorry guys but this is rubbish, any full contact art will teach you at least some useful skills from day one, and if anyone tells me that Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is somehow less technical than aikido I will laugh in their face. The idea that you need to train for X amount of years before you have an opinion is just the way McDojo instructors try to stop you from questioning what you're taught and training elsewhere. In the other thread, people told me I basically wasn't allowed to dislike aikido because I'd only tried one lesson, but I've already wasted years doing crap training, during which time I could have been in a better position to start something good, and I'm not going to do it again.

The second is the old crap about aikidoka having to hold back with their techniques. You don't. Wristlocks and armlocks are legal. Also, ANYONE who trains in grappling learns how to breakfall so ukemi is not an excuse either.

I'm sorry if this post appears to be overly blunt, perhaps bordering on rude, but really I'm just trying to put the point as simply as possible. You are not too deadly to spar.

 

Ara waza techniques break the bones rather than pin them. They also negate any possibility of breakfalls however skilled the attacker may be.Learning to throw someone without injury is very difficult. Learning to injure someone is so much easier. I suggest you read the martial arts of aikido threads so that you may gain a different perspective of the art.
Sparring is usually done at arms length aikido in a fighting context is to attack through and "wash over" the opponent.And as I said to apply the techniques without injury is most difficult but if this is not a consideration then anything goes.

koyo

 

There's some good information in this thread.

I think as far as what works in light sparring and what doesn't, it comes down to experience. I know that I used to try things a lot more that weren't the smartest things to do and I would end up in a very bad position.

I now know to stick with principles more than technique and then apply whatever technique comes from there. Such things as unbalancing before locking or takedown. Striking through the target to unbalance and stun... etc.

I end up getting quite a lot of submissions from Ikkyo and various wrist locks that I learned from Aikido, even in light sparring, but they come because the opponent "gives" the technique to me by leaving themselves open for it.

The other point is that light sparring is relative, my light sparring is considered heavy contact to some used to non-contact yet I bet it would be ultra-light sparring compared to some of the no holds barred folks I've trained with.

Mostly I stick with about medium contact, get more benefit from this because I can move up to heavy contact or down to light contact with less adjustment.

 

I've only read about half this thread, and I'm a newb in general, but the good thing I keep hearing about aikido is the foot work, and that is one of the first things they teach you, I believe, as well (I've not taken Aikido...yet).

Add onto that the low price of most aikido instruction, and I think it might be a good suppliment to those cross training in more than one MA. The footwork would probably work better mixed with most MA styles than would, say, trying to use boxing-style footwork, because boxing stances and those of most MA don't mix well. But Aikido footwork might.

In the MA I currently practice (which will remain nameless, to avoid a flamewar), what I've seen so far has powerful offensive techniques...but the stances are a bit rigid, at least if you were facing multiple opponents; thats where I hear Aikido footwork might come in handy.

Plus, many Aikido dojos have training in all those cool weapons, as well . Not practical for the street...but fun

 

Aikido footwork teaches the principles of getting out of the way. You'll find it in (probably) all Martial Arts. The mechanics of style don't matter in the end.

Weapons training is another vehicle of learning ways of keeping you safe on the street. It's good to develop a habit of not taking everything at face value. Weapons are cool though

 

Aikido is one of the arts police forces draw on for their empty hand technique against people who are not being compliant; IIRC, the Tokyo police have been noted for using Yoshinkan.

That said, I began doing Jun Fan back in May, so I have done more sparring than I have done in years. Have any Aikido techniques popped out? No. But would one exepect the whole technique or some attribute developed by all that repition of the techniques, as if it is repetitive drilling? Although the first poster said Irimi worked every time.

At least one exercise used at the start of class for a back strectch appears to have its roots in a neck brake -- at leat a very hard throw. I wouldn't poo-poo it.

 

Timmy,
Ive notice from a great deal of your threads that you are dis-satisfied with Aikido. I dont know why you are still on the Aikido forum, if not to only ruffle some feathers ( if this is with the intent of striking some thought provoking converstion then by all means, continue ).
Im a cop. I work for "The worlds most famous beach" ( which per capita has the highest crime rate of any city in America in 2004, per FBI Nat'l crime statistics ).
Ive been into countless fights. Some were people just trying to flee, others were trying to stab me, or otherwise pound my butt into a pulp.
Ive tested my Aikido in the most realistic way possible and that is by fighting for my life. I can attest it works. I can also attest that BJJ works. Same goes for Muay Thai.
However, I disagree with you that you will learn something applicable from day one in ANY art. This isnt so. You are taking too many variables and throwing them out. Variables such as teacher quality, emphasis on reality, the students own ability to learn and the quality of the training partner. All these things must be had to facilitate learning ( must be had as in must be good quality and ALL geared towards a specific goal of practicality).

Most Aikido schools dont address certain aspects of combat, though.
I have found that a ground base of BJJ, and a striking foundation of Muay Thai make for a very complete art when governed by Aikido principle and techniques.
Dave Humm is another in Law Enforcement that can attest to Aikido's practical use in combat.
Perhaps you cant use it, because you mind is so dead set against it being effective? Could be... could it not?
For me, it works, and i know this because i have tested it.
Take that for what its worth, but ill continue to do my job, and go home safely. Largely thanks to Aikido.
Train hard, its all any of us can do.
JD