Stop winding me up It is the same principle as atemi the cut or strike does not stop on the target. It "pushes or pulls" through to a kusushi. Similarly the bokken pushes or pulls on contact rather than striking like a club. Musashi used the bokken because it was not as vunerable to breakage as the sword.I was told many times that the bokken or bokuto is a weapon in it's own right not only a replacement for a sword. regards koyo
Good answer... helped me to see things better. Did not mean to wind you up... well I did but I appologize :love: On a related note on weapons and principles... I was told that taking up "fly fishing" was a good hobby for a swordsman. For one it can get you a meal, but also because the body mechanics are similar.
I believe the actual response was "if you want to master the sword" or any other weapon, "first you must master taijutsu.". Now to me that doesn’t mean empty hand techniques. The poster then clarified it later with: Personally I feel the comment about mastering weapons via Taijutsu was a bit wider reaching than some took it. My understanding was it was referring to proficient use of your body and a developed understanding of miai, kurai dori, chosi dori etc It wasn’t referring to the basics of whatever weapon may be at hand i.e. the technical aspects of cutting etc, these like all other basics must be learned. It was more about correct positioning and timing and such so that you are in place to use the weapon and keep safe....... er I think. *slinks off back to his dark corner* Also my apologies Koyo for the responses you got, from some, in the forum.
This was the actual quote that caused us to make comment. Lets not try to rewrite the facts now. The response was poor and dogmatic but I have read some of the other threads and realised this is just par for the course on that particular sub-forum. I guess this is why Ninjutsu get such a bad name out there much in a similar way to Aikido. Some of us here are trying to bring traditional Aikido back, hopefully it will happen in Ninjutsu too. The Bear.
Spooky FBI All posts I have made have been an honest attempt to bring something of value. However often I have felt that they are taken as criticysm. When this is NOT my intent.Over the years a large number of gentlemen who study ninjutsu have attended classes on weapons at my dojo and constructive cross training has been the result. But it must be said that they do not wish to advertise this becuse of a reluctance of some teachers to say they have gone outside of their association to study weapons. Myself I have absolutly no problems with members of the makotokai seaking training elswhere and have in fact taken them to kendoka friends so that they may learn from them and have had kendoka come to us to train in aiki ken to gain a different perspective on their own art. There is so much that we may learn from each other it is sad in my opinion that we often tend to train only within out own groups. No apology at all is needed regarding the responce from a few members. Cross training and learning from as many areas as possible has always been my way and is not the way many others choose to train. I respect that. regards koyo
er I'm not it seems I just put the wrong quote in, that's what I get for trying to work and post . Please don't think I've come over here to crusade I just thought I'd jump in and have a chat.
Ah your just sucking up now nah fair enough. You should read the martial art of Aikido thread. It has loads of gems in there. We don't exclude non-aikidoka here. The Bear.
Always welcome regards koyo A principle taken from swordsmanship is that the instant you take hold of the sword you fill yourself with the intention to strike.(having no particular technique in mind) I have found it most difficult to explain this to those who believe that aikido is a "responcive" art. Most techniques applied in traditional aikido are pre-emptive striking at the opponent as he delivers his attack rather than blending with the movement.Better still attacking as he approaches. Weapons training teaches this type of approach. Below on the left it can be seen that David as he takes hold of the sword is already moving with a definite intention to strike.It is this attitude that colors the approach to training that keeps the martial attitude in aikido. Gerry although seated maintains posture and concentration.If called upon he shall attack inmmediately with no preparation other than rising to his feet already in kamae and full of the intention to attack. There is no "competative" attitude rather it is a determination to...attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and control the spirit,timing,distance and opportunity of the attacker. Any technique I may apply against David must take into consideration Gerry's placement. regards koyo
Something else from kendo is the ability to go from zero to 100% in an instant.This can only be done if the body and mind is filled with intention. Also the unexpected .below a single hand cut as he moves backward.(when everybody "knows" the cuts are double handed and move forward) :Angel: Gerry is pushing off of his forward foot to avoid the do cut while still staying in range to effect the shomen. This is also a demonstration of enten jizai defence and attack as one. regards koyo
THIS is ura. A major difference in traditional aikido influenced by the weapons training is the maximum freedom of mobility using the MINIMUM of body movement. No clearer is this than in the ura techniques. Often you may see the aikidoka making large circular movements.(example kote gaeshe) Such movements leave numerous openings. Below in answer to a thrust ura is applied by an opening of the hip.The kote is struck and the kisaki (sword tip) immediately threatens the face of the attacker effectively engaging an omote principle. Derek has attacked a suki (opening) left as I attempted to raise my sword. Since I was "filled with the intention to cut" I can sense his attack and counter it mid-way. Even during ura my kokoro kamae (attitude of mind) is still attacking. (attack at all times) It is this attitude instilled by weapons training that makes traditional aikido effective. The second photograpf shoes enten jizai attack and defnce as one. The ura defends at the same instant the sword attacks. Is this a common principle in other arts?? Your thoughts please. regards koyo
This is a common principle among arts... for instance in karate it is said there are no blocks, all blocks are strikes... etc. When questioned how come there ARE blocks in karate application... my first karate instructor, Chinen Sensei replied, "a strike can be used as a block." Even the "soft" open hand parry is learn as a strike to stun the limb OR it is a parry combined with some kind of limb destruction or breaking technique. I think, however, that what happens to the lessons learned from applying these principles is that human nature kicks in. What I mean is say that I am learning a simple open hand parry against a punch. I can be taught to parry as a strike with a very short range of motion or to cut through, but once I start training this the human nature is that I don't want to be hurt or badly hurt my training partner, so the striking hit used to block becomes more of a soft block and we end up not hurting each other. This is not a problem in itself except when now the technique becomes this soft block and only that is taught, the lesson of the parry hit being used to stun or unbalance the opponent with a small range of motion is lost through the passing on of only part of the knowledge. Human nature transforms the techniques until maybe they don't use the principles anymore and drift towards impractical application. One example from the movies of how human nature transforms technique is in the Akira Kurosawa file, "Yojimbo." There is a scene where the two rival factions in town are facing each other with swords out. When the first side advances, the other side backs away in a hurry. When the other side advances, the first side backs away in a hurry. All the time they have their sword out with tips pointing at the enemy, extending the weapon as far away from their body as possible. This is human nature, IMHO. Imagine what happens when it is these techniques taught rather than ones based more soundly on the principles. I see this in sparring, people back away and dance around, move in and out... and they end up hitting a bunch of nothing. On the other hand, you have "blitz" fighters that like to charge in that eat these guys alive because you can't run away faster backwards than they can move forward. But then for some odd reason, the blitz fighters often fall short against the aggressive fighters that only move as needed end up being called "counter punchers" but in reality they aren't counter punching, they are exhibiting the skill of making the opponent miss when they themselves hit!!! The URA as described by koyo, IMHO. Human nature is to run away (fear) or "blitz" in (anger), but martial arts techniques often teach "counter punching" (which is an incorrect term, IMHO). Counter punching should be attacking while protecting yourself, it is not what human nature often turns it into which is "run away/block, then charge in/counter." Real world example of what I've heard of and seen happen... a trained martial artist is confronted by an attacker. The martial artist "comes in HALF speed" to feel out the opponent like some sparring match... the opponent "goes from zero to 100%" in an instant and just whales on the martial artist who is overwhelmed with "sucker punches." P.S. I noticed Koyo you already posted about going from zero to 100% as part of a principle. Many martial artists don't do this in sparring and that can lead them to having problems in real world application.
Excellent post Rebel I gave a seminar on weapons and a kendoka was there. Arrogant young first dan.I had been cross training in sword principles with friends who were 5th dans at that time.I had little experience of competition.Anyway this boy managed to talk me into armour and we were supposed to have a friendly match. "Competing" with him there was little I could do, so he started to show off a bit.Buzzing around me like a bee and whipping in these cuts and strikes that would not be acceptable in a true kendo match where they must be delivered powerfully with ki ken tai ichi. Finally I had had enough and I skipped backwards about ten feet clear of him and assumed yodan kamae (shinai above my head) he dashed in to make kote (cut to the wrist) and ,as I had been taught by Gerry and John (5th dans) I timed it just as we were about to make contact and exploded from nil to 100% in an instant and cut directly through his attack and my shinai erupted on his head the ken sen (little cup that holds the bamboo strips together) popped and the shinai opened like an umbrella. My body carried on through and I had to leap over him as he fell. No competition simply as I had been taught by John.He refused to believe that I had not trained in kendo as much as he had and said that he had been set up. I told John about it when I got home and of course we went out to the garden (we shared a flat for a few years) where I was to "show" him.When I adopted the yodan kamae from a wide maai he simply stood there and smiled.So all I could do was smile back!! John is a great guy one time when training with bokken I managed to get him against a wall with my bokken in his face. This is TRUE with nowhere to go he growled like a bear and actually bit the tip of my bokken!!! Ah the old days and the old ways. Shihans John Hepburn and Gerry Kincaid. Again thanks for the posts they help me to put my own thoughts into perspective. regards mate koyo
Waki Kamae Waki kame is adopted from Seigan kamae by drawing back the right foot and lowering the sword to gedan hiding it behind you. Since this is a negative body posture (katachi kamae) the spirit (kokoro kamae) must be exceptionally strong reaching out to encompass the opponent. The mind is unconcerned yet totally aware. From Waki kamae the swordsman makes use of HIKI-KOMU this is the principle of drawing the opponent closer so that he may be cut. The total absense of any sense of threat and the seamingly negative posture may cause the opponent to attack reklessly. DE-BANA is that instant when the opponent decides to attack.For that moment he is vulnerable to a decisive strike catching him at the moment of preparation.A strike under these circumstances is called DE-BANA. KI-O-MIRU is the principle of immediately seeing the spirit of the attacker as it emerges. MI KIRI is the ability to anticipate the path of the attacker's sword and evading the instant before contact (minimum movement) The swordsman may choose to use these two principles to enter to the side (irrimi ) and attack instantly' leaving no time or space for the enemy to react. The attitude of WAKI KAMAE is a perfect template for the development of the martial artist since no threat is offered and the inner strength of the swordsman is hidden. The inner strength of the martial artist is not displayed to others yet is obvious to those who can see. All of these "sword" principles are in the hand techniques of traditional aikido. regards koyo Hi REbel (hope you like the drawing)
Hey guys! Just wanted to say that this is an excellent discussion, and that I am really enjoying all of your thoughts here. Koyo, I am learning a lot from your words (well... learning may not be the correct term, but I am at least getting something valuable from most of your posts) - please continue sharing your thoughts here, and definitely don't be discouraged from posting on the ninjutsu forum!
Thanks for the encouragement Big Will. As they say watch this space. Any comments or questions most welcome. regards koyo
JODAN KAMAE This is the most positive of the kamae.It is most difficult to assume this posture from chudan kamae because the swordsman becomes vulnerable to a thrust as he raises the sword. Therefor it is normally assumed from a wide maai or on the approach.This posture is accompanied by a very aggresive kokoro kamae (attacking attitude) Once assumed a powerfull assersion of control is applied. There is no thought of defence this is a purly agressive kamae inplying that the swordsman is ready to recieve a cut to kill the opponent. In the go rin no sho Musashi calls this "striving for height" and cutting straight through the enemy's intention to strike even to the point of breaking his sword with the power of the cut. This is the kamae used in empty hand techniques where the aikidoka initiates the technique by attacking first. regards koyo
SEIGAN KAMAE in seigan kamae the sword is held in the centre covering the centreline and threatening the face of the attacker. This posture is the most versatile since it is possible to attack in any direction from it.For this reason it is the kamae most used in taijutsu. It is the kamae that most emphasises enten jizai attack and defence as one since the kamae is not commited to attack such as jodan kamae nor "appearing" defensive like waki kamae. This is the basic kamae of taijutsu since it defends the centreline and offers the smallest target to the opponent while retaining the posibility of freedom of movement in all directions. Having explained the three basic kamae it must be understood that these are NOT stances (dachi) More correctly they are understood as attitudes. ALL kamae involve the body and mind as one. There must be no separation. An understanding of these kamae and their relationship to taijutsu allows us to , when unarmed, "fence" the opponent rather than fight him. regards koyo Any questions or clarification welcome.
