Again good posts, thanks. In addition to a single-edged blade treated as a double-edged weapon by using a turn of the wrist, I also am aware of techniques that can be applied very close in with a single-edged blade by placing your hand on the non-sharp back of the sword. This is not done as much with double-edged sword because one would cut themselves. Different weapons lead to variations of techniques if not outright completely different applications. Anyway, what I'm getting at is that to understand the weapon principles found in Aikido training, not only are the similarities between sword, jo, knife, unarmed to be explored but also the differences. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but a Jo, for instance, can be used like a sword (cutting weapon) but it really is a big stick (blunt weapon). What could be the "hole" created in Aikido if the Jo was not trained and only the sword? Or turn it around, what if the sword was dropped from training but the Jo was kept? Why is it better, if you agree, to train in both?
Hi Rebel Personally I find that training with the sword makes me more decisive and direct. Training with the jo makes me more versatile particularly in my understanding and use of distancing.Since the jo strikes like a sword, sweeps like a halbred ,and thrust like a spear the maai is ever changing so it also aids in my mobility. I would not choose to emit either weapon from my training. Incedently the sword can be used "at half length" by placing one hand or the other on the back ridge depending on which side you enter. Seigan kamae (sword at half length) regards koyo
INFORMATION There is no on going debate whether weapons training should be a part of aikido. There are those who choose not to practice weapons and have also chosen to all but eliminate atemi (strikes) from their training.Nor is ara waza (severe pre-emptive techniques) taught in many clubs. My belief is in aikido riai (complete aikido) We should not change the art we should allow the art to change us. Morihiro Saito shihan was famous throughout the world for his synthesis of weapons and unarmed training.Myself and several of my students received mokuroku (teaching cerificates) in aiki ken and aiki jo from Saito shihan.This was in the mid eighties long after the passing of O Sensei. Morihiro Saito shihan.
Here s a good article from stan pranin http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=31&highlight=weapons he knows his aikido history. i was told that your tech should be as sharp as a blade and as fluid as the jo.
KNIFE DEFENCE Many arts have specific techniques for dealing with a knife attack. Aikido however demands that EVERY technique is effective against a knife. The attack may be sudden or unexpected and there shall be no time to "register" that a knife is being used. ALL techniques must be effective against more than one opponent. Training in this manner the importance of absolute freedom of mobility BUT use of minimum movement becomes apparent. This brings into question the use by many of large circular movement and the lack of atemi. Rather than address the knife it is the over all movement of the opponent that is acted upon. Below the irrimi and atemi against a direct thrust carries me out of the line of attack. A basic principle of aikido is that it is the taisabaki body alignment that protects us from the attacker more so than any striking aside of the attacking limb or weapon. This is clear in the tachi dori sword taking techniques of advanced aikido. The technique is an ara waza severe version of tenchi nage that places the spine in danger. The technique is applied about three times faster than normal. Alternately the left arm snaps up just above the elbow as the right strikes down on the forearm. David is trained in atemi so he manages to cover the strike to the face (missing the strike to the ribs) also while his hand is defending he cannot use it to impede my technique or strike. your thoughts? regards koyo
You bring up so much in your last post koyo. I really can't comment except as I've been doing mostly this thread and that is to ask more questions. How does your above post follow these findings (from this thread http://martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62875&page=2&pp=26) : Is this a case of uke attacking your left side?
Basic principles still apply do not get hit move the entire body while maintaining defence of the centreline. In an ideal world the knife hand is controlled the attacker thrown and disarmed. Under a sudden attack this is not always possible but to instinctively move out of the line of attack using attack and defence as one a powerful atemi should set the attacker up for a follow up technique a pin throw or another number of strikes. Again it is the overall body of the attacker that is attacked rather than the knife hand only. below the triangular entry can be seen and the defence of the centreline which is effective against almost all attacks. I would not be stopping in this position i could enter up his left side effect a strangle and secure the right arm from behind or if the atemi was particularly effective wrap his right arm inside the line of the knife. (no knife in photo) regards koyo
Hello me again. Now on the topic of defense against knife attack, whether armed or unarmed the same combat principles apply so I believe. Koyo, you have also stated this many times that the principles are the same across martial arts. Sticking to the basic principles, my intepretation is: 1) do not get hit / be a hard to hit target / align the body 2) enter / control / position 3) attack strongly / finish strongly More or less the above happen in order but they can happen together also. Now Koyo has provided another principle: "maximum mobility, minimum movement" It is in this principle that I have seen almost exclusively with arts that deal with multiple attackers and weapons. I have also seen this principle in my BJJ training... talk about minimum movement, on the ground it can become a battle of inches. Talking about other martial arts and the same principles, this long video shows some training that in my opinion shows application of the same principles that I experienced through Aikido. - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6orsJ6W2fvU&mode=related&search="]David James Knife Defense Vee-Arnis-Jitsu - YouTube[/ame] Another one that seems to show the same principles (at the end): - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJyOsSKPwLU&mode=related&search="]RBSD knife attack and defence - YouTube[/ame] Now here is some training I feel goes against these principles: - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWQfgwuOAxo&mode=related&search="]Realistic Knife Defence Training - YouTube[/ame] - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YY_6nQT89vQ&mode=related&search="]Realistic Knife Scenarios - YouTube[/ame] Before someone thinks I'm criticizing the training of others or that I think it is crap, I want to make sure it is known that is not my intention. I like all four of the training videos I linked to above. The bottomline is getting to practical application, something that works when it counts. What my intention here is in showing the value of the principles. When in the latter two videos the defender did not exert successful control and they locked up with the attacker, they ended up losing mobility and becoming a "pin cushion." In these same videos there is a place where the defender grabs the head of the attacker in a clinch and knees him... this works because the defender got control of the attacker and maintained mobility. There is also a point where a smaller attacker with knife goes after a bigger defender. The bigger defender just grabs him and throws him to the ground... this works, again because the bigger defender exerted control over the attacker and maintained mobility. Just pointing out that locking up when not in control is going against the principle of "maximum mobility, minimum movement" as it put people in the latter two videos in some very disadvantaged positions. Just my thoughts for discussion.
Hi Rebel, In my experience, knife fighting is the theatre I worry about most. Almost every defence I have attempted against an opponent with any abilty, I took a hit. I then change strategy to accept this and minimise the cuts while blasting through with a massive assault of my own. My outcome was attack fast and hope they don't kill you with the first cut and make sure they don't get a second. It's was just to fast a weapon to do otherwise. The Bear.
ATTACK RATHER THAN DEFEND???? Finally someone gets it.Almost all injuries against a knife arise because the victim is intimidated and tries to control the knife hand rather than take the MAN out of the fight. So bear if you enter triangularly into the attack chances are you won't have to risk the first cut. Go gettum. regards koyo
:love: On a related note, a long time police officer and Kajukenbo Professor told me of one of his first real world fights in the line of duty. The attacker thrust a knife down at him like an ice pick, he instinctively blocked the strike with age uke (karate rising block) and then proceeded to punch the guy out. The video "Surviving Edged Weapons" from the early 1990's, if I recall, stated that you can't fist fight a knife and win, that statistically the law enforcement officers that survived actual knife attacks were the ones that managed to grab hold of the weapon arm and never let go. I think it is easy to conclude that there is a contradiction between the two above methods of defending against a knife armed attacker. I don't see that there is a contradiction because there is more to it than that, for instance the importance of experience and training martial arts how you plan to use it in real world. Everything has a context...
Hi Rebel In such circumstances an unlimited responce is demanded. The officer responded with what he knew. He could have carried on with the age uke to control the arm and THEN punched him out. In the second photo I posted I could enter to the rear strangle while pinning the arm but I would STILL consider punching him out. Whatever is necessary. Oh yes, if possible get your "responce" in first control the knife AND punch him out. regards koyo
Oh, koyo... tried this last night in class. (Note this is just a link to the picture you posted.) Worked very nicely. :love:
Man you are good Koyo. The officer told me that he had years of Shotokan karate training and the rising block he had done thousands of times... so it came naturally. How did you know??? As for the punching out, he nailed the attacker good on the first two punches, pretty much knocked him out there before he hit the ground... don't know how much more punching was involved but that was the jest of it.
Yup short and sweet and it works whether a knife is involved or not.Did you throw or "impulse" the arm. Or better still both. regards koyo
It was basically a "U" punch to me, but done much more quickly and shorter ranged. The uke does not always step-in with the lead foot when thrusting (e.g. thrust with the rear hand with no step) so I had to enter very close in catch him off guard and draw him into a more open stance where I was in the right position to execute a good technique to the ribs and head. I don't know if that is throwing or impulse, but I did follow up with left forearm underneath and right hand coming from above to "sandwich" the knife arm with a quick elbow break (hyper-extension).
Another aspect sometimes missing in techniques is that while attacking if possible engage the "other arm" as well. Cause him to block eic. This is important in attacking against a knife (like the term bear?) Do not forget he can also punch. kick and trap your arm. A good defence should address all of these aspects. regards koyo
Will do bear. Basically it means taking your body out of line and while covering his attack simultaneously striking at the attackers face to engage his other hand. Here a lateral strike has been cut down and a simultaneous strike of my own has gotten through (his block was a little late)THis would work against a similar cut with a knife.Takes a bit of confidence. regards koyo
Bear I will need to get you to show me triangular entering next time I see you. Just to see if and how it compares to other systems. Can be quite interesting, Doce Paris was based on a triangle, which is very similar to tai chi's 7 star step.
