Aikido against modern attacks.

Nope I'm not familiar with tenshin as a option against a low line attack. Since the object of the sprawl is to evade the low line attack (hips back and move the legs out of line of attack), pressure down on top of the opponent, and pivot on your chest... the footwork that I saw as closest was hantai tenkan.

So Izu, what would you suggest as a good strategy for training against a low line attack? For example, let's start with just the basics of counters... since you say there is no uke and no tori.... let's have student #2 attack student #1 with shizumi otoshi. Now lets say you are student #1 in this example. What is it that you should be doing in this situation as it relates to Aikido training in the dojo?


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXcAmJWEXXw"]YouTube - Aikido Moves for Beginners : Aikido Knee Drop Technique[/ame]

So the one demonstrating shizumi otoshi is your training partner... you are the one on the receiving end. What do you do? Remember, no uke and no tori... I'm looking for your counter.

 

So it is clear to me that you do not believe in the statement told to me by my first karate instructor, Chinen Sensei. That statement was, "the secret to [martial arts] is in the supplemental training"...

He went on to say that by black belt, 90% of your training should be in supplemental training. Only 10% by this time should be in the visible parts of the martial arts (kata, forms, basics).

By the way, cross-training is part of supplemental training.

I, on the other hand, am a firm believer in what my Sensei told me.

 

We had a thread like this on AikiWeb, and George Ledyard Sensei replied that training against uke who are honest and committed in their attacks is a lot more important than bringing more modern attacks into training. He seemed to think that most aikidoka who felt unprepared against modern attacks could be fixed by spending more time training against good attacks rather than changing the kind of attacks in their training.

 

IMO,

From a SD point of view "modern attacks" need to incorporate an awareness of HAOV.

After all isn't self defence what we mean when talking about feeling unprepared against "modern attacks".

It's all well and good practicing against X style but if you've no idea of how those assaults are going to be delivered in real life then you will be unprepared.

If you're not incorporating that type of thing then all you are working on is your delivery system.

 

I agree, but at black belt levels, everyone should already be training with honest and committed attacks. You need to go beyond this at some point, do you not think so?

Back in the early 1990's George Ledyard Sensei had a punching bag in one part of his dojo, Aikido Eastside. I remember working out on it for fun. Why do you think there was a punching bag in his Aikido dojo?

When Satome Sensei came for one seminar, he taught a counter to a spinning back kick. I know because I was uke that attacked with the spinning back kick (since I was already in karate for many years by that time). This was at Aikido Eastside and George Sensei was there.

Everything has a context. There are somethings that should be a given at black belt levels of training but these same things need constant reminder at lower belt ranks... who was George Sensei addressing in his statement? What was the context?

Edit: btw OwlMatt, I'm not on about your post. I thought it was a good point and post. I was pre-empting anyone that might try to take what George Sensei said out of context to mean something else than what was the intended context.

 

Tenryu

Dear Bear,
If indeed Tenryu/O Sensei did not challenge each other in the manner that I suggested what exactly was the test of strength you refer to?Since it was alleged that Tenryu was pinned by O Sensei some physical action must surely have taken place ? I would be grateful if you would supply material/reference which supports your viewpoint. Thanks. Cheers, Joe

 

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=905478#post905478

Hey Joe, here is perhaps an explanation of what took place that day.

Still very impressive, IMHO, but not the legend of the one finger pin.

 

From an interview with man himself.

http://www.aikidofaq.com/interviews.html

O Sensei: Yes. I met him when we were making the rounds after a celebration marking the 10th anniversary of the establishment of the government of Manchuria. There was a handsome looking man at the party and many people prodding him on with such comments as, "This Sensei has tremendous strength. How about testing yourself against him?" I asked someone at my side who this person was. It was explained to me that he was the famous Tenryu who had withdrawn from the Sumo Wrestler's Association. I was then introduced to him. Finally, we ended up pitting our strength against each other. I sat down and said to Tenryu, "Please try to push me over. Push hard, there's no need to hold back." Since I knew the secret of Aikido, I could not be moved an inch. Even Tenryu seemed surprised at this. As a result of that experience he became a student of Aikido. He was a good man."

Frankly it was little more than a parlour trick.

The Bear.

 

Dear bear ,
Thanks for article.I am sure I read somewhere O Sensei also pinned a sumo guy with one finger.Maybe a different incident??
Hope you are well, Cheers, Joe.

 

At the end of the day, on the street you are not going to know what the attacker is going to do. There are hundreds of styles he could have trained in, he could have no experience at all, he could even be carrying a knife. As long as you train hard in a variety of effective, appliable and practical techniques, you are going to be an efficeint fighter.

"Suffer more than anyone else is willing to suffer."

 

I agree, none of this competetion bollocks is going to get you anywhere on the street. It's not that I'm dissing any kind of competiton based styles such as Tae Kwon Do, but at the end of the day, you need to finish a fight as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

"Suffer more than anyone else is willing to suffer."

 

That may have been while training with O Sensei but we both know that there are plenty of simple tricks that look very impressive in a restricted context but have no practical use in the real world. O Sensei was a keen show man and knew how to work his audience. It is part of what made him such an excellent martial artist.

The Bear.

 

Incorrect.

If you do your background research then you should have rough idea of how such things might unfold.

Short of a pyschopath launching a blizt assault these things don't necessarily come out of the blue, there is a sequence which unfolds.

Knowing the general MO of the less than reputable members of society gives you an edge and helps make you a harder target.

If you know the behaviours to look for and the warning signs then there is a degree of prediction about it. Admittedly somethings you will not know but you can limit those unknowns and train in such a way that they a slightly more controllable.

The particular delivery system he uses to punch you is ultimately of very little relevance, imo, the set up before hand however is very important. What does it matter if he's used a strike based on Wado Ryu or Boxing? Eitherway at that point he's trying to pound your face.

You are already being hit, on the back foot thinking "what the?", much better to be ahead on the OODA loop to begin with.

 

And from Tenryu's viewpoint:

From an interview with Tenryu in 1986, conducted and edited by Stanley Pranin (1993) in Aikido Masters volume 1: Prewar Students of Ueshiba, Aiki News

 

I have never been under any illusions about my Aikido training. I am aware of it's (and more acutely) my limitations at this stage in my Aikido career. If I came up against a boxer or BJJ practitioner who had spent the same amount of time training as me I think I would definitely be in trouble. All I could offer right now is a slightly elevated ability to take a beating.

This isn't me admitting that Aikido isn't effective or useful against other arts it's that IMO Aikido is an art which does take a long time to be proficient in. That's just the way it is.

I really believe it is important to get an understanding of other arts through cross-training. If I make it to Shodan then I definitely plan to cross train in other arts, test my abilities and make my Aikido as effective and genuine as possible. I don't want to dedicate my life to an art and lie to myself about my abilities and shortcomings in that art.



As Dave said, a lot Aikidoka's would be in trouble if they came up against a boxer or BJJer as they have no understanding of how they are going to be attacked.

It's one thing to say that a Yokomenuchi is an attack which can be utilised to demonstrate techniques and principles it's completely ridiculous to say it resembles a haymaker or a boxers right hook.

A lot Aikidoka's are delusional about their and their techniques abilities. I don't want to be one of them.

In Gozo Shioda's words...
"Aikido is not a sport but a budo. Either you defeat your opponent or he defeats you. You cannot complain that he did not follow the rules. You have to overcome your opponent in a way appropriate to each situation."

 

Joe,

See this post for a possible explanation of the one finger pin on the sumo wrestler:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=905478#post905478

 

It's a change in emphasis but I'll tell you good boxers know a lot about the interplay between footwork, striking, and kuzushi. They may not throw but they know how to put you somewhere bad in such a way that you must unbalance yourself to escape. They definitely know how to run someone out of head-movement room. That's just with regards to balance. Their understanding of openings and how to present and encourage them in order to create a desired "moment" is terrifying.
And I don't think anyone is disputing that getting good takes time.

Specializing in BJJ is going to make you better at BJJ specifically, that's true. You'll still be missing half of the understanding and control of the principles which drive movement in all ranges. If you practice both you'll see the parallels and have the understanding of both striking and grappling to adjust and improve the movement in both. You may end up with superior orthodox BJJ but I think you'll find that it leaves you unprepared for many other techniques, even in submission grappling. All the principles for submission grappling exist and are common in BJJ but without crosstraining experience it's difficult to separate the principle from the technique and thereby create solutions in the moment. Even very dangerous fighters who have not experienced anything but their own style and its way of doing things tend to be caught by technically poorer fighters simply through ignorance.

Example- someone who has only ever done BJJ will tell you never to cross your legs during juji gatame, or the crossbody armbar. It takes the pressure off of your knees' clamping action and allows the opponent to shrimp easily and pull his arm out. This is absolutely true except under certain circumstances. He may be very good at this technique and consistently escape it. Let's say he wrestles with a catch wrestler or sambist or mixed grappler, who sets this armbar. Instead of hooking the ribs and neck and clamping his knees together, however, he crosses his ankles under the BJJist's far shoulder and cinches his heels in towards his butt, bunching the BJJist's shoulders toward eachother. His ankles are crossed but he's still sticking to the BJJist and the standard escapes are sketchy at best unless you can get those ankles separated. What do?
With only BJJ experience you'll only have BJJ responses to BJJ questions. Your principles may be applied properly in the technique but without the experience dealing with many different applications under resistance you won't be prepared to create a response to match the quirks in an opponent's movement, from something as large as the example to something as small as a rounded step versus a straight one during a throw.
It's ironic that you picked BJJ, as this is a problem fairly common to BJJ schools. It's good that they're focused on structure and proper movement but many schools also have a problem with "rules" of movement and technical prejudices which do not neccesarily apply under all circumstances, or even most when dealing with someone talented from another style.

 

Thanks Ratty, great post.

That point about juji gatame was one that I wondered about before. Hooking under the opponent's far shoulder is something there in BJJ too, but I needed someone to point that out to me.



In the last few years, I've been liking this version of the armbar finish (without the flying part), fyi:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih4LJ3e4Y2g"]YouTube - Judo Flying Armbar[/ame]

 

hi ratty. your post is interesting about the being a rounded fighter in regards to bjj. i was listeninig to a podcast of stephan kesting interviewing erik paulson. i can't remember if it was a gracie or machado that erik was training with in the 90's. but he was talking about the controversy around how erik wanted to do more wrestling and no-gi. and his bjj instructors were upset about it. if you look now, the most rounded mma fighters also train in wrestling and many, many bjj gyms now do no-gi. just some tangential thoughts...

 

That entry made my morning. I've seen that set of hooks and if it goes on it gives me fits but I don't personally like it. It's very hard to stall that one out and I have tons of trouble escaping it but I don't feel 'attached' enough or that I'm making the other guy uncomfortable enough. Almost a third of my game is just structured rudeness anyway.
I'll drop it here though as this is an aikido thread and while the principles may cross over somewhat, grounded grappling is a bit detached from what aikidoka do.