I have wondered how accurate are interpretations of historical western martial arts. And was wondering if anybody had any recommended material.
We really have no way of gauging accuracy. Also what's available depends on what weapons you would like to study. The Bear.
True. People no longer fight to the death with edged weapons, so there is no "ultimate test" anymore. However, many groups pressure test their interpretations exhaustively. Some are better refined than others. For example, rapier fencing has so much in common with classical epee fencing that we are reasonably sure what the masters were talking about. English longsword is still in an embryonic state. The principles of German Longsword, in contrast, are very well understood. The particulars of any given technique may be up for debate, but the varying interpretations of German longsword techniques look very much the same, even between groups that have no contact with each other. Good practicioners of HES tend to do as well or better than those of any other sword arts when fencing each other with intent to hit. That's as good as we can tell without fighting to the death. Either the interpretations are pretty darn good, or swordsmanship has been utterly forgotten world wide, even within Japanese koryu, which is highly unlikely. The principles of swordsmanship are universal, plain and simple. It's the particulars that differ. For example, I was fortunate enough to partake of a four day HNIR (speaking of koryu) seminar during the summer. Towards the end, we were required to perform a set of kata. Both myself and my partner were new to HNIR, but not to swordsmanship. After we performed our kata, Watkin sensei said that it looked like we had been doing it for years. We hadn't been doing HNIR for years, but we had been doing swordsmanship for years, and that's what enabled us to perform as well as we did. A cut is a cut, after all. If you like, go spar some HES guys and see how well you do. Best regards, -Mark
I wondering about the unarmed combat of archaic European martial arts (meaning the renaissance and earlier) and particularly Germany. And how did boxing and wrestling come out of nowhere again in England.
Here is a list of Fight books that contain elements of unarmed combat as well as weapon based combat. The ARMA web site has alot of translations available for you to look at. http://www.thearma.org From the 15th century Codex Wallerstein Fiore Dei Liberi 1410 Das Solothurner Fechtbuch 1423 Talhoffer's Fechtbuch 1443 (Ott Jud) Filippo Vadi 1480's Palus Kal c. late 1400s Lebkommer c. 1500 Fabian von Auerswald 1500s Hans Wurm c. 1500 Albrecht Dürer's art 1512 Achille Marozzo 1536 Joachim Meyer 1570 Salvatore Fabris 1606 Johanne Georg Paschen 1659 Nicolaes Petter 1674 The Bear.
Hi swz999.... Basic forms of Boxing (fist fighting) and wrestling didn't just appear, they've always been practiced here in the UK and Ireland. Newspaper publicity during the late 17thC-18thC, and the introduction of rules probably gives the impression that they appeared from knowhere. There are ancient references to traditional wrestling & "putting over the fist" in Ireland and Scotland and kicking too - "Thumb of Foot to Root of Ear" is just one example! Terry Brown of English Martial Arts came across this English charter which may be of interest:- 'Laws of Richard I (Coeur de Lion) Concerning Crusaders Who Were to Go by Sea. 1189 A.D. ("Roger of Hoveden," III p. 36 [Rolls Series].) Richard by the grace of God king of England, and duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, and count of Anjou, to all his subjects who are about to go by sea to Jerusalem, greeting. know that we, by the common counsel of upright men, have made the laws here given. Whoever slays a man on ship board shall be bound to the dead man and thrown into the sea. But if he shall slay him on land, he shall be bound to the dead man and buried in the earth. If any one, moreover, shall be convicted through lawful witnesses of having drawn a knife to strike another, or of having struck him so as to draw blood, he shall lose his hand. But if he shall strike him with his fist without drawing blood, he shall be dipped three times in the sea. But if any one shall taunt or insult a comrade or charge him with hatred of God: as many times as he shall have insulted him, so many ounces of silver shall he pay. A robber, moreover, convicted of theft, shall be shorn like a hired fighter, and boiling tar shall be poured over his head, and feathers from a cushion shall be shaken out over his head,-so that he may be publicly known; and at the first land where the ships put in he shall be cast on shore. Under my own witness at Chinon.' Terry adds that.... "Whilst the reference to striking with 'his fist' does not prove the existence of skilled fist fighting it seems to show that it was a common enough practise for it to be associated with its own punishment. Perhaps too the lighter punishment reflects the much later attitude that 'men settle their arguments with fists not knives". Louie
I believe that Louie is correct; boxing and wrestling didn't just spring full formed as did Athena from Zeus' skull. There has always been a tradition where people hit each other in the head and wrestle with them. One reason that it seems so is because of the gladiatorial innovation of Figg. He put on boxing, wrestling, and fensing competitions publicly (possibly importing the tradition from Itally). Most boxing historians place Figg as the "Father" of classical english boxing. Before that, it's really hard to trace though there are hints here and there. However, we can surmise that there must have been some sort of tradition of boxing and wrestling, else Figg would have had no one to compete against. Peace favor your sword, Kirk
