izumizu O Sensei said that his ability was based on a LIFTIME OF HARD TRAINING.His dojo was called "The HELL Dojo" because of the severity of the training. Many of the original shihan were against introducing aikido to the west because it was thought that "Those with a little knowledge would present it in an egotistical manner and attempt to make financial benefits from teaching." Too often I have seen some attempting to execute techniques "like O Sensei" and when challenged outside of their dojo they could do very little. I have seen one sitting in a chair and "countering" attacks from four swordsmen simultaneously. He himself would not have lasted minutes in a serious class with us. O Sensei and all of the original shihan taught very little. The emphasis was on presenting challenges that the student must investigate and answer themselves. Attempting to be a clone of O Sensei or any of the original shihan was considered arrogance and was treated with contempt. Cross training with those who have no interest in performing ukemi shall teach you more about your own standard than training within your own comfort zone.[/QUOTE] So then, I have a couple more questions for you: in light of not being a clone of anyone, but trying to do aikido the way that O sensei did it, for fear of being right, or fear of arrogance, it is okay to stop there, just short of mediocrity? It might have been arrogant for a Japanese person to make those leaps, but you yourself are Scottish (I assume), and those rules of Japanese culture you can manuever around quite easily. An "attacker" in the dojo knows that at some point he will be thrown/taken down, and can resist to such a degree as the circumstance warrants. Kind of a been there / done that mentality. An attacker that is trying to bounce your head off the side of the street has, probably the farthest thing from his mind, any idea that he may even slip and accidentally fall on his own, busting his tailbone, let alone being thrown...especially by someone such as yourself at your age...you thing some 30 yearold who confronts you says...okay, I'm going to take this guys money, but I have to be very, very very careful...cuz he might throw me. Or another (not for real entirely made up situation for those of you having trouble discerning real from not real still) situation in which you happen to take a couple of casual glances at a pretty girl, but her boyfriend misinterprets those glances, and wants to sweep the place and parking lot with your jaw. He comes up to you with the idea of really letting you have it, maybe even buys you a beer first to gain your trust. And as he's planning out his next move a little light pops on inside his head, and he says to himself...now I know this guy was eyeing my girl, an I'm gonna make sure that don't ever happen agian, right here and now...ohhh, but wait a minute. Hmmm...I wonder, I'll have to resist whatever it is he tries to do...yea, I'll get him, and I'll make him pay, but I'll have to resist whatever it is he is going to do...and then I'll get him, ohhh, and if he tries to throw me-
Sure, but I'm still waiting You go ahead and lead, don't wait for me to inspire you, or guide you into your next post based on what I say, or what I have said...just take the reins, and lead right into it, and I'll try to keep up. I'll do my very best, cuz, I'm sure you could dance circles around me, but I'll try an keep up...with what you believe is methodology. So, I'll just sit here gibbering away, squablling away with you, leading you into your next posts, guiding your thoughts, emotions, and you can take the control back anytime you want and lead into the discussion you seem to wish not to have.
robin, i think it's important to understand that in a self-defense situation, aikido is an striking art, employing knees, elbows, punches, palm-strikes, whatever. read koyo's posts again. kyokushin is awesome! i don't know what that means when you say "the culture stakes". but, i think you'll find that the principles of using kyo and aikido are the same. also, i agree that in mma, practictioners need to cross-train in order to survive in the ring (boxing, muay thai, bjj). that's the great thing about it, if you're into sport fighting. cross training is key for any martial artist! but don't ever discount the principles taught in aikido and the training methods employed.
Way to take your thread back And again, thanks for such a great question that inspired a few, and provoked many. Good luck in your continued training!
Think you can provide an answer to this: So how often do you dislocate the shoulder of your uke or break his arm? You must have a high turnover of training partners. Once we've done that we can see about how your training takes into accounts the problems with certain methods such as scripted drills or overly compliant methods and perhaps how you build up the levels of resistance so that you are doing more free flow type work and even dare I say randori! A straight answer would be good as at the moment you're coming across as being rather clueless.
dean: i've studied at two different aikido dojo's now. in both places, practitioners and sensei have been very, very cognizant of not being compliant. it's a fine line, especially with newbies. at first, there has to be some compliance but resistance does have to be built up. just throwing it out there...
Well... I've already answered your question, twice, (and now a third time) and in two different posts. If that is not the anweres you were looking for, then I can't help you. I have also answered your question in other posts I have made that were not in response to your feeble attempts to gain more insight into the situation at hand.
So you ask me to lead. I do that and give you a specific thing to answer and yet again you fail and backout with excuses. lol I'll leave you to it as it's obvious you can't contribute anything of value.
Sure, life is full of failure. Leaving it to me again? Backing out of the ring already? Accepting your loss? Wise on your part, but I'm a bit surprised, I thought you were really going to take the lead on this and perhaps leave me with something of value. I was really looking forward to being enlightned by you. But I understand your fustration. It's okay.
And so quickly too And so quickly too. All of two posts you lead on and that's it? I guess when the lead, follow, or get out of the way option is presented to you you choose the latter?
When you disparage other martial arts besides aikido, you invite a response from other martial artists besides aikidoka. When you disparage MAP, you invite a response from MAP members. You've done both in this thread. Don't try to wiggle away when you receive that response that you've invited. We all know Koyo doesn't need defending. What I was doing was using him of an example of everything you're not. You're sitting behind a keyboard, throwing stones at other martial arts and other martial artists without showing one iota of what you actually do that you think is so superior. You think you're so damn impressive compared to what the rest of us do? Prove it. Show us. Put a video or three of yourself on YouTube so we can see how much better your training is. That's what I mean when I say: Put up or shut up.
To the OP. Why don't you see Aikido in MMA, here let Bas answer the question. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k_uumIQ1uk"]YouTube- Bas Rutten: Aikido in MMA[/ame]
Hi Giovanni At the Makotokai beginners are taught "the first principle" DO NOT GET HIT. So the main emphasis is on body movement and alignment. ALL attacks upon them are powerfull and accurate but made at such a speed that they can avoid them.But this still means that they are out of their comfort zone. They are not lead to believe that they can effectively execute a technique. This is why I am against the "enjoyable.smiling" practice that some instructors offer. It is of NO value at all. So I agree entirely with your attitude to training. Bass Rutten I agree entirely with the nonsense of "catching" punches.In fact it is impossible yet often seen at some training. This is the danger of those who train in advanced techniques ment to control. This is far more difficult than striking an attacker and is why O Sensei said in a real fight atemi striking is 90% of atemi. Izumizu To train like O Sensei you need only be a martial arts genius and spend decades of very HARD training and have the ability to execute the techniques against other martial artists simply because aikido had become his life. Most of us have to work for a living also. I was lucky to work in an area that my ability in martial art was important still I was NOT training every day.I make no suggestion at all that I am emulating O Sensei. Even the finest aikido shihan..Saito shihan who received more personal training from O Sensei NEVER claimed to be like O Sensei. ALL of the original shihan have said that the training under O Sensei was incredibly demanding. NEVER any mention that they should be smiling and enjoying the training. A Bit OF Arrogance. I am a tough SOB. Not from the number of guys I can fight but from the number of times I was demanded to attack time and time again always being thrown until I was exhuasted..then told attack again. That has been incredible value to me whenever I have to face any problems in life. Down 8 up 9 is a fundamental principle in producing good martial artists. That is why I have no time for such "training" that encourages smiling and "helping" each other. A REAL fight then techniques are not as important as PRINCIPLES. The major principle is to show a superior fighting spirit than the opponent..to ATTACK at all times and destroy his intention to continue. having friends who train in other arts including MMA I am certain that that attitude shall present itself in a true confrontation.Also I have no friends who snarl and growl and pull faces.
he could have just said "aikido's not for me". i strongly disagree with his assessment that aikido is not effective and i generally like bas.
koyo: the place i'm currently at, teaches first and foremost, to not get hit. doesn't matter where you go and how you get there, just don't be where the attack is. that's a hard concept to understand, for me sometimes, and i think for all beginners. sometimes i get caught up in concentrating on the technique instead of focusing on the principle of "don't get hit". i've got the occasional fat lip to remind me, hey, move out of the way.
Hurting people without touching them? You're not one of those no-touch KO wackos are you? Unless you mean emotionally. In that case, I can say nasty things to people and hurt them without touching them.
Been there. Once got such a beating that whole clubs left aikido after that seminar. however I had asked for real aikido and I was having my spirit built I was exhausted but NOT injured too much. In fact after the training the shihan said that students should have thanked me for showing the "true" spirit of aikido. Few understood that. Second principle we study is proper body alignment that allows us to strike and unbalance the attacker.ONLY then shall we go on to executing techniques. BOTH of these principles are taught because we should NEVER attempt to throw or pin an attacker if he has not been properly unbalanced first. If too much time is spent on developing ukemi many students tend to fall even when not unbalanced. It is more important that tori can execute the technique that allows ukemi rather than uke performing it. best wishes for your sincere training. koyo
I find people who don't practice in a traditional atmosphere simply don't make the connection to some of these traditionalist ideals. Having the ability to train a lot when I travel, I visit all types of dojo. We had an 8th dan from Japan come and give a seminar for us. This guy was uchi deshi for 47 years under Gozo Shioda...hell his first year all he did was lean mats. Anyway, when he threw me so hard I temporarily lost hearing in one ear...I immediately popped up into seiza and bowed enthusiastically (but properly) in gracious thanks for his willingness to show me a solid technique, executed smartly, "true," showing his respect of my ability to take the fall (my head never hit the mat...I have no idea why I lost hearing...he basically threw me into the basement). Anyways, reminiscing... I guess my point is that some just don't train that way, and don't find any value in it. I find that is where the true value in my training lies...and its little to do with techniques just to learn them...but using physical training to develop and better oneself. Some think they can do this by standing on the shoulders of people like Ueshiba M., and others, and train like they did toward the end of their career when they had been training already for most their life. They try to get that personal growth and development without the arduous, physical, shugyo training. That's great for those that can forgo that kind of training and skip to just being a high level person by speaking about it....but that doesn't work for me. A lot of times, I find dojo play lip service to these ideals and really just play act for their class and leave their training behind them when they leave. I, for one, spend hours and money in the dojo to better my life outside of it. Sorry, I guess I just wanted to see how off topic this thread could get! Osu!
I don't know anything about aikido other than what I have read and so far this thread has done little to answer the OP's question and is more about who has the REAL aikido. So having heard what Bas had to say what do you who practice aikido have to say about the lack of aikido players in MMA?
I quite like this post,excellent observation of the misconceptions/delusions of many involved in some sort of martial practice written by one shaping/finding his Do with both the realization and willingness of the necessity of "eating bitter" to do so. My compliments to the chef!
