A relationship between street fighting and point fighting?

I've never been a point-sparrer, but I can understand both sides of the argument. In Capoeira, our version of sparring occurs in the roda. Sometimes techniques are done in such a manner that they minimize injury while simultaneously honing the technique (..and application thereof). Conversely, there are other times where hard contact/resistance is applied (..be it takedowns, kicks, punches....which are rare; open handed attacks prevail in Capoeira, etc.), and the techniques are pressure-tested. IMHO, pressure testing best serves the purpose of developing quick thinking/response to an aggressor.

 

Wow, that was a long thread of arguing...

I see many point-practitioners claim that point-fighters can hit hard. Well, a blind monkey can hit hard, too. The trick is learning how to hit hard WHILE you're being hit hard or defending against a hard punch/kick. I'm not saying every point-fighter can't take a hard hit, but let's be honest a greater percentage of them can't. Most of them are just not used to getting hit. You can't compare that to full-contact/mma.
I've learned from Kali training that you can take someone who has never fought and give him a stick and he'll be able to hurt someone else who has experience because hitting is easy, blocking and hitting is hard...and if you're not used to receiving hard hits how will you defend against one when the time comes?

 

The Relationship Between Capoeira and Sparring

Um...wow. I've done capoeira, and the roda may be the only thing I've ever done that resembles fighting even less than chi sao. Seriously? The roda? Are you from the only grupo in the world where people hit each other full speed in the roda?

Capoeira is a beautiful game, and the concepts of controlling the space around your partner and limiting or forcing his movements in the way you want are subtle and intricate. It's not sparring though. The problem is, you're required to artificially move in a capoeira way at all times. At any time in the roda if you just wanted to hit your opponent you could pretty much drop out of the ginga, put your hands up as a guard, and swing a roundhouse or thrust a teep straight at your opponent. You don't because that's not the way you play the game.

I've seen some youtube videos of "full contact" or "mma" capoeira and that's exactly what happens. They come out with good aus, maybe even through a few queixadas (sorry for the spelling) and then the second somebody makes contact it turns into bad kickboxing or ground and pound.

 

Mr.Galt,

How much time did you actually spend training Capoeira on a regular basis? Were you training Angola or Contemporanea? Were you training with an aggressive group? Have you spent any time in Brazil playing Capoeira in the favelas? Please allow me to preface my comments by stating that, in most rodas, play/malicia is emphasized rather than sheer aggression Allow me to also state that the meia lua de compasso - probably one of our most devastating kicks - is usually not performed with the intent to harm while in the roda (..i.e...it is thrown slower than potentially capable, thrown at somebody with the skill to avoid, thrown in such a manner that it misses the target, etc.), but I have seen it thrown successfully with calculated intent to harm the other jogador. The game was over at that point!

With the above being stated, no, we're not the only grupo who utilizes hard contact. In fact, we are less aggressive than many groups that we affiliate with. When you reach the level that I'm at in Capoeira, contact is imminent. I've been training for 6+ years, and am an Instructor. My mestre plays a contact game with me 70% of the time. Other mestres, contra-mestres, professors, etc. also play contact games with me. The students whom I've grown with in the art of Capoeira, and who are the same rank as I am, also play contact games with me. One of my equals (..who is also a senior ranked student) - a Brazilian from Bahia - also had his jaw/eye socket fractured by a meia lua thrown by a mestre at our 2004 batizado, and now has screws and metal plates in his face. My point? While we're not trying to literally take one another's heads off all the time, we do play hard sometimes, and we regularly play with contact/pressure. In fact, I can post a picture right now of a Capoeira event that I attended (..the mestre & location I will not disclose) in which two Professors put on head gear and body protection, and played a full contact Capoeira game. It does happen, and it happens in that grupo on a regular basis.

There are many Capoeiristas who don't play hard games, and those are the Capoeiristas who very rarely experience any contact in this art aside from maybe a softly placed vingativa. These individuals come to Capoeira for the play, the music and the culture. They have no desire to learn how to fight, and they do not aspire to ascend up the ranks (..which will require you to be put to the test on many occasions)...........and that's okay. A fighter or an individual with an aggressive side to their personality will demonstrate those characterisitics regardless of whether they are playing basketball or training a martial art. Those archetypes in the art of Capoeira are the individuals who become fighters in this art. Everybody else just comes to play, and play is just as enjoyable.

You present an interesting perspective, but please allow me to clarify. The roda is a Capoeirista's way of sparring. It is our way of taking the methods/techniques taught, and applying them in an improvised manner. I can guarantee you that a Capoeirista who does not spar - who does not play the game of Capoeira within the roda - is a Capoeirista who will not be able to utilize any movements under pressure. Your comment about "moving in a Capoeira way" has me puzzled. Of course you'd be required to utilize Capoeira movements to avoid/counter attacks. After all, it is Capoeira that you're training. If you were training [insert art here], you'd be required to move as you were taught. Sure, an individual could avoid using the ginga, pull a guard, and perform a roundhouse or deep thrust kick at the other jogador. At the same time, the other person could perform a rasteira (..or meia lua aimed at the face) under that roundhouse or a cruz under that thrust kick, and drop that individual. It could go either way, and whoever performs the best under the pressure will have the upper hand. Like you said, dropping the ginga is not how the game is played. In the scenario that you presented, the individual who threw the roundhouse or thrust kick could have done so while in the ginga. We, as Capoeiristas, do it all of the time. Lastly, a Capoeirista is always on guard.....

....well, at least a Capoeirista should be.

Those videos, which are mainly from the Muzenza group, still have rules applied with regards to flow, technique, etc. The reason that the altercations turn into G&P is because there is no more use for Capoeira technique at that point. MMA and Capoeira don't really work well together, but there are a lot of Capoeiristas who make the transition. Barraozinho (..Lelo) and Vinicio, who are the sons of Mestre Barrao, come to mind.

 

I did capoeira for about a year and a half back in 1999/2000, and my grupo had close ties to an Abada grupo, although we weren't a member of any larger organization. We played some Angola but mostly Regional. You're right that the emphasis on our group was malicia and play. As our profesor put it, "If you get hit, it's your fault. If you hit somebody, it's your fault." Every batizado, class, anything I've seen, both back in America and here in Kansai, has been extremely limited in terms of contact. It sounds like your group is more sportive, and perhaps I was painting with too wide a brush. Mea culpa. I shall not say you do not spar. I shall of course continue to say that I did not spar. However...

This is the part that kind of bothers me. Other arts that spar do not require one to move in their way. I do Seidokaikan now, and we spar at our school under both Kyokushin and K-1 rules. The rules govern what part of your body may make contact with what part of our opponent's body. That's pretty much it. If I came in and fought using kicks from savate or taekwondo or wushu or punches from Drunken Monkey nobody would say a word to me. I probably wouldn't have the best time of it since our techniques are refined to take advantage of our ruleset, but it's NOT required that we move as we were taught. This is where I get the notion that if somebody wanted to hurt you and not get hurt while playing, he could simply drop out of ginga and STOP PLAYING at which point the person who continues to ginga and use capoeira techniques would be at a serious disadvantage.

Most of the arts I've seen use what I'll call for the sake of argument a Negative Ruleset. The rules govern what you can't do. You can't punch to the face, you can't kick a downed opponent, you can't use a standing arm lock. Most of these rules are intended to enhance the safety of the participants. It sounds like your group uses what I'd probably call a Positive Ruleset. You're required to do something active, the ginga, while sparring. Of a necessity, a proper ginga has various openings at various stages in the movement. This rule would seem to decrease safety, and reduce the verisimilitude of the practice, (relating back to the original thread topic.)

Maybe it's just personal, but Positive Rulesets like capoeira's "you gotta dance while you spar" or chi sao's "you gotta stay in this artificial range and try to tap people on the chest or forehead" have always bugged me. To me actually hitting people in capoeira would feel about like punching my partner in the face during a swing routine.

Out of curiosity, what are the negative rules in your rodas? I'm guessing for instance that if someone were to bust out an au batido you wouldn't be permitted to angle past him and sweep your shin across the back of his elbow for the win (and permanent disability).

 

Thanks for the intelligent response. Frankly speaking, a year and a half of Capoeira is barely enough time to begin to understand your own body with regards to the application of Capoeira movements. I would estimate that an individual doesn't begin to "see" from the perspective of a Capoeirista until well into their third year of training. That comment is not meant to sound condescending towards at you by any means bro (..because it most certainly applied to me, and many, many other students), but it is a statement made that is much closer to fact than fiction. ABADA is a good group! The members of the organization tend to play aggressive, and the sheer number of students makes them one of the largest Capoeira groups in the world.

The cliche that your Professor used is one that I've heard many times throughout my years as a Capoeirista, and to a large degree there is much truth to what he stated.

If you were to survey every student in our group, only 1/4 of the students would be able to relate to contact Capoeira (..mainly all of us with blue/yellow cords, and those with full yellow cords; a few with yellow/yellow/green cords). The remaining students in our group have probably never experienced anything remotely close to contact. The main reasons for this are as follows....

• lack of experience in Capoeira
• intimidation (..not purposely, but sometimes the skill of other advanced students within a group cause the lesser experienced Capoeiristas to avoid playing in the roda, which is detrimental to their overall growth.)
• games that are played within the roda are with less aggressive students (..i.e..they only play with students who lack the ability to apply pressure)

In order to fully appreciate what I was describing in my earlier response, one must take a step back and consider the esoteric nature in which Capoeira is practiced. There are elements within the art of Capoeira that are rarely found in any other M/A, traditional or otherwise. To enter the roda utilizing movements from any other M/A wouldn't be Capoeira (..despite the fact that our basic kicks are largely the same as every other striking art; the exception being the "meia lua de compasso").

I disagree with your comment in bold, and my reasons are as follows. Your comment was made from the perspective of somebody with minimal time under their belt (..so to speak). To the person who has not spent much time training, the assumption usually accepted is that the ginga remains the same in all cases. I harbored the same widely held assumption in my early years. The ginga of an experienced Capoeirista varies based on the situation; it could be a series of side-steps to avoid an attack, or it could be some wild/unorthodox (..like anything in Capoeira is orthodox ) drunken dance to confuse the other person. The ginga could essentially be anything. Just watch Cobra Mansa or Mestre Sampaio for some examples. The ginga is not always the typical contemporanea ginga that we all have practiced.

Using your terminology as the basis for my response, Capoeira has both a positive and a negative ruleset. This ruleset is not finite, therefore the rules/traditions associated with one group don't necessarily transcend all others. This is the reason why a Capoeirista enters every school with humility as a priority. Observation is key!

In every Capoeira roda, you are required to actively move (..i.e..ginga, role, etc.). The lesson within the game is designed to hone your ability to be adaptable, understand your position relative to the space constraints (..i.e...small roda = minimal space, big roda = more space, etc.), etc. To stand in one spot and make yourself an easy target goes against an essential tenet of Capoeira.

With regards to the ginga....

...as mentioned in my earlier response, the ginga "is everything, and it is nothing". It can be minimal movement, a feint, a crazy sway, a drunken stupor, etc. A proper ginga is the one that best fits the situation presented; it is not a one-size-fits-all type of movement (..or at least it shouldn't be). I'll reuse an old Capoeira cliche, "The ginga is the first movement that you learn, but it is the last movement that you master!"

A Capoeirista is only as open as they allow themselves to be.

 

...continued

Sometimes the game gets tough, and at the root of it all, Capoeira is a fight. The longer you train, the more contact you'll encounter (..IF you plan on ascending as previously mentioned). There is always the option to just play the game.

Our ruleset requires just that you respect the other player. I'll paint a picture using your example. If I were playing a game with another individual and attempted a cabecada, they may respond with an au batido towards me (..the way that it should be done; used like a jab to the head). I might respond by shifting my body in the other direction (..away from the au batido), but placing a rasteira simultaneously. Placing the movement within the game is the same as actually performing the movement to completion. Respect is given towards the other person because I didn't pull his/her arm from under them, and respect is returned to me because the individual recognizes that I caught them in a state of vulnerability. It's this discourse that makes the game of Capoeira so much fun. I don't have to pummel/injure to make a point. On the same token, I'm sure that while sparring, you're not able to eye gouge if you've mounted another student either.........right?


There are plenty of movements/counters that we do not perform to completion because to do so would result in severe injury (..i.e...negativa de Angola under a bencao, then kicking the knee). Respect doesn't negate contact though. It is widely accepted and acknowledged that contact comes with the belt. What I mean by that is, most Capoeiristas know that after they receive a yellow cord (..which is usually the 3rd cord for most contemporanea groups), for example, the games will begin to get rougher. Once you have blue in your cord, the flood gates are open (..again, in most cases).




P.S. Dr.Galt, I figured that I'd post a couple of the pictures that I referenced earlier within this thread regarding the full-contact match. I've distorted the faces of mestres/contra-mestres/professors involved due to the fact that cameras/video weren't favored, and this particular mestre prefers not to have videos of these matches posted around the internet. Here is a picture taken prior to the mestre issuing the aforementioned instructions.




...and here is one of the few that were taken of the contact game in motion.

 

There is no correlation between point sparring and "street fighting." End of story.

 

I would have to agree with the above poster here. I don't mean any disrespect to points fighters who train hard and compete in their own respective disciplines. However what they do does not resemble fighting in any way and does not develop skills and attributes that will improve their fighting ability.

 

the idea being that karate trained for "real" fighting involves every blow to be a stopping blow, this transfers to point fighting in the above way.

 

So what about those of us who are doing knockdown karate like Kyokushin, Enshin, Kyokushin, etc who hit people multiple times full contact without gloves and they don't die? Are we not being taught the real deadly? Kyokushin especially contains the same basic techniques and kata as many traditional styles who believe in the above notion, but also contains the reality check of full-contact fighting, which doesn't allow people to hold that notion.

Is it perhaps possible that the notion of ikken hisatsu is a little bit philosophical and a little bit ad copy and as such shouldn't be taken to actually mean that you're going to end the fight with each strike, since, well, you usually don't?

 

No, its not... First off not everything is a "Street Fight" in fact I break it down a bit more realistically
1. A fight
2. A Self-Defense Situation
3. A street fight

A fight is social violence used to establish dominance, it can range from a sport like MMA or high school wrestling to bullying or a brawl fight over whose team is better. A self-defense situation arises out being the target of criminal violence which means the attacker already has a game plan & unlike fight it cannot be de-escaleted. Then you have a street fight which is two people trying the servely harm the other; think gang violence as one example. In a fight their is a face off; and yes your right quicker gets you there faster. But, being on the recieving end of a criminal assault or attempting to blatantly criminally assault someone else is very different.

Yes and no, in theory its perfect but thats only in theory. I'm a fan of sparring & sparring teachs you two things, getting hit and actually hitting someone. My g/f studied Tai Chi and they never sparred but they learned some SD methods, buit they were never practiced and she when she hit someone for the first time she wasn't used to the feeling of the impact or "knuckle alignment." Needless to say she quit and took up boxing.

Either way, there is a saying "no plan survives first contact with the enemy..."

Sparring and Sparring Drills under "combat conditions."